Are European Schools failing a new Generation?

[ajimenez3]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13124097/site/newsweek/

The article above is an article about the failing European school systems.
What I have to ask is that the European posters please read and comment.
Not being in Europe I have no idea about this and would like to know the thoughts of Europeans on this. What do you think about what is said in the article? True or False? Over simplification of the problem?

Your thoughts would help me understand this better.



Semper Fi
Arturo

PS If thes is in the wrong area I am sorry and would a Mod please move it to the proper area.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Generalising a continent's school systems is probably not helpful. I can't tell you anything more about French schooling than you can youself.

[Shaun]

Generalising a continent's school systems is probably not helpful. I can't tell you anything more about French schooling than you can youself.

True, British and French and German schools are all different.

But i can tell you that British schoold suffer from underfunding,in my old school the classes were open plan( no walls, just corridors with dug-out like rooms). And the fact that schools are always fund raising also tells us something.

[Isnogood]

I'd agree in general with the article, that not enough resources are put in the education system, and there is a dire need for reform, especially in France,Germany,Italy etc.

As the article itself points out however, the scandinavian schools are rated to be the best in worldwide comparison, as are -according to the artiocle- some british universities,therefore I can't really see, what this "all europe is going down"-sentiment is based upon, especially since I just read an article (in an american newspaper/-mag)some months ago in which american high school-students were said to have scored much lower in a standardised test,they and their european counterparts had to take in a study...results which sound also rather dubious to me, the typical semi-annual scare.

I think the article is quite right about the chances of immigrants however, at least as far as Germany is concerned, with a three class school system where immigrants are virtually stuck in the lowest school level their chances to be succesful in the job market and therefore the chance to assimilate is very small, something has to be done about that soon.

All in all this article is typical american in it's perception of Europe(no offense), there is no one european problem, but some european states with varying degree of need to reform.To mash all european school systems together in one article and claim europe's education system is "failing a new generation" simply makes no sense.

[Gaius Baltar]

There is also an educational crisis here in the US. Lack of funding, poor salaries for teachers, poor school maintaince. Another curious aspect is the school board system here in the US. These function autonomously, and can take great liberties with districts funds. Often you see contractors, who are related to school board members, being hired to perform a job in district, at unbelievable prices. One example is a Dallas school district which had to shut down completly because of this type of shading financial dealings. Despite being fully funded, the schools in the district were falling apart, there were no textbooks, the teachers were working without paychecks. Students were shipped to adjacent school districts. When the Administrator of the school board was approached by the news media, he declined to comment. He then, stepped into his Lexus, smoothed his silk shirty and drove off. The corruption is rampant, and obvious.

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

Well can only speak for the schools in my city in Sweden and I say the schools are doing good.
The students have every chance to succeed, unfortunately they don't seem to want that.
Those schools here that complain about underfunding are the schools that are in the bad areas. However they are not underfunded because the goverment gives them less money, far from it. Some kids however vandalise the school so all the money goes to repairing the school so that the students that does care can have a pleasant work enviroment.
But this can be different in other parts of the country.

[Mad Guitar Murphy]

In the Netherlands Universities are pretty good. No crumbling walls and circus tents and a promising future awaits us all. I don't really recognize any of the general allegations with regard to this made in the article.

As for high-schools with lots of 2nd generation immigrants in the Netherlands, they do quite poorly. I guess they do quite poorly in the entire western world though. The problem is I think that the current system attemps to teach children with 'less learning skills' in a theoretical manner while they should learn to do something with their hands. Teach them to become a carpenter or something like that.

'Already, schools and universities graduate too many students, native and immigrant, straight onto the welfare rolls—a cost explosion that threatens to blow up Europe's budgets and drag its economies down even more. This spring, French university students scared of not finding jobs gave the country a whiff of revolution. Their nationwide protests have also paralyzed an entire nation's attempts at labor-market reform'

I think this statement is completely out of contest, the students marched against a law that would enable contracters to fire them without a reason and whenever they felt like it. They didn't march because they were scared of finding a job under the current system. That said, France is probably in need of social reforms.

'Less than a quarter of Europe's working-age population has a university-level degree, compared with 38 percent in the United States and 36 in Japan. Study after study, by the OECD and others, has shown high-school achievement stagnant or slipping. '

wha wha what?! 38% of working age population in the US has a university degree??? Can anyone confirm this?

Well, I didn't read all of the article, must. have. food...

I do agree that education should become more of a priority.

[Carach]

dunno about the rest of europe but my primary school was good (although, the others around it were terrible or at least bad in comparison..). My secondary school was in the top 100 in the country or something like that, best in the county and so forth - it was a dump - although there have been new blocks put in and more planned (including a cool sports hall...) The school has improved a lot material-wise mainly because of increased funding after winning some 'special subjects' things (aka, the school is a specialist in drama/art/Sports now..)

My earlier years were before all this took effect - the school was still old (the main block was built in 1939...hadnt really been touched up since), There were many 'mobiles' because the new block planned was delayed by some 5 years..so we were being taught in mobiles that were literally falling apart and serious safety hazards - not to mention the rubbish that gathered underneath them, rats were common sightings), school text books were from 20 years back (i actually got given a book this year to look at that was from pre-ww2...), desks and so forth were in terrible condition, the art dept. was a mess and that was what the school was known for being good at lol.

The school was before i was there anyway (some years before infact) a bad school to go to, it was made a lot better though into what ive said above, but a nearby secondary school that was closed down (housing developments is going on it..) was known for being a dodgey school (although an improving one) was shut down and students moved to the schools around it (one of which was ours).

The government have closed down loads of secondary schools in my county, overflowing other ones and ultimately making education worse in them. Same goes for my school that took a bit of a hit on the scores for exam results and so forth when this all took place.

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My mum is a primary school teacher in a large town - her school is the best one there and the intelligence of the pupils is astonishingly low...government policies again dont help this.

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I find schools are being told to teach advanced stuff before people even learn the basics. (Sex education instead of reading for example). This may enhance the intelligence of some people in these special areas, but ultimately are not important if the person in question cant even read/speak/write proper english.

Some of the people in 6th form here are unbelievably stupid on simple topics for 6th form...yet we are one of the best schools around.

[Alatar]

Less than a quarter of European adults have a degree. A think it is unfair groupping us with all of Europe, there are some countries in the former soviet union that will bring the statisics down alot.
Also speaking from my school, the main block is 30 years old, but there are 3 other ones but in the past 10 years, and the mobiles from the 70's are getting replace with modern ones.
The school is good and is giving out good results, and the best students were taken to oxbridge this year, where we were taught how to enter the best.
Andas for people abusing to welfare, well they are genrally considered the lowest of the low, and will die of lung cancer soon.

[Carach]

Less than a quarter of European adults have a degree.

your remember the brain drain after ww2 up until recent times - all the intelligent uero's went to america...

[Isnogood]

No doubt some Euros will run in and claim how its a biased article by American media to make them look bad

Nope , everywhere you americans appear, you make us europeans automatically look good.

Less than a quarter of European adults have a degree.

Could be a statistical matter, european universities haven't really accepted the BA as academic degree for very a long time, there has only been an MA equivalent up until recently.Imo the higher proportion of academic degrees could be largely due to the existence of this "lesser" degree.

The article states that students are seperated into different career paths. The less inteligent?

Well,selection is according to performance at school, since immigrants are facing difficulties with the language at the first place and are therefore at a disadvantage, it's rather not fair nor fitting to say it's a matter of intelligence, though it probably was meant that way.

[Alatar]

Hmm, There was still alot of intelligence in Europe, don't think that the only people who were left were drooling idiots. Oxford and Cambridge have always been great, and recently univerities have sprung up all over the place (hence the drain on funding, more people want to go to univerities).
Though I agree that the education in Brittian was bad during those times, with the 11+ exam decided which school you went to.
But you right that in Europe, partiulary the counties that suffered in the war, had alot of people immagraiting to the USA, but not all the smart ones.

[Dionysios II The Great]

The Flemish education system is very good, i think that the baddest education systems are in bigger countries.
For example: France.

[Custor]

No idea as to Europes education system. 44 separate countries. 44 educations systems I guess.
As the UK is trying to reach 50% graduate level then numbers wise this country is ok.
Obviously the quality (once the foundation of British degrees) is dropping through the floor as numbers increase. My international firm gave much greater weight to a British degree to that of one from the US. That can't last long as the number of UK graduates goes through the roof without some X-men brain booster to increase intelligence levels through the population.

Looking at the OECD figures they mention Finland, Hungary, Iceland and Swedean as having 60% graduates. Go to the source figures as the article seems not particually balance is a kind description.

[ajimenez3]

Thanks for all the replies.

I think what is happening is that the writer might have been focusing on the schools in trouble and used that as the bases for the article.

I mean all school systems have problems to some extent everywhere.

Another question. The article states that students are seperated into different career paths. The less inteligent? to more vocational type schools, and a greater majority of these being immigrants or 2nd and third generation immagrants. Is this what is happening in all the countries or just Germany as the article pointed out?


Semper Fi
Arturo

[CaptainCernick]

As I've grown used to, the article only references to the big three, the Netherlands and Scandinavia. What about Spain, Portugal, Greece, the new (formerly eastern-side-of-the-curtain states), and Belgium?
As has been said before, it's not very wise generalising entire Europe. But I can believe that there's a downward trend in Europe's educational system.
For example, Belgian children and students scored very high on the OECD's, especially in maths and languages (duh...). I can only speak for Belgium here, but we do have "black" and "white" schools, we do have a problem with immigrants -especially and strangely 2nd and 3d generation immigrants(!)- underperforming and there are some schools that are hopelessly underfunded.
The universities are mainly grouping together in large corporation, to the point that the biggest one (KULeuven) is becoming sort of a educational multinational in Flanders. I don't think the quality of university education is dropping, though. And I haven't seen any paint coming of the walls either in my uni, nor has any of my professors ever offered me a degree for a blowjob.
As for refusal to renovate, this is the second year of the infamous BaMa (Bachelor-Master) structure, and while it's causing a lot of upheaval with professors and students alike, it's coming along.
We DO still see 'braindrain' here to America. Many researchers are tempted by better offers and a more research-friendly climate in the US.

I think what is happening is that the writer might have been focusing on the schools in trouble and used that as the bases for the article.

I mean all school systems have problems to some extent everywhere.

He might have, but he does try to give examples of better scoring educational systems in the end. Again, I don't think one should look at the European educational system in general, every European country is still more or less different.

Another question. The article states that students are seperated into different career paths. The less inteligent? to more vocational type schools, and a greater majority of these being immigrants or 2nd and third generation immagrants. Is this what is happening in all the countries or just Germany as the article pointed out?

Yes. Here in Belgium, the secondary schools (age 12-18) are divided in ASO, TSO and BSO. ASO means General secondary. This is for fairly bright students, able to study quite a lot of theoretical material. In ASO you follow things like Latin, Maths, Science, Modern Languages,...TSO is more technically or professionaly oriented. Still very theoretic, but more oriented towards practical and professional skills. There is less an emphasis here on The Arts (history, languages etc...) There is a definite 'trickle-down' effect from ASO to TSO. Children may start Latin in their first year, 'trickle down' to another, 'less difficult' ASO class and ultimately end up in TSO.
BSO is speciffically geared to learning a profession: carmechanic/cook/secretary...
It is in fact a fairly good system, were it not that there's an unfriendly bias towards TSO and BSO. Children (or their parents) don't want to go to TSO or BSO, because it's for 'dumbasses who can't take ASO'. This results in an overflow of students in ASO, struggling to find work, while TSO/BSO students are BADLY needed in the economy.

[danzig]

No doubt some Euros will run in and claim how its a biased article by American media to make them look bad From the article it sounds like European schools face alot of the problems American ones do but, it does seem the problem is quite a bit worse in some European countries. Finland's approach and an approach used quite a bit by the US now a days seems to be the most successful, here in NYC school system was basically overrun by school board members who basically all they did was become more a hurdle then a source of solutions. The former mayor (go Rudy!) successful wrestled control of it back under the wings of the office and since then the schools HAVE been getting better...still have a ton of work to go and teacher unions are still another hurdle. Schools need the flexibility to adapt to their local population's needs, if you try and control it too far up the food chain its simply not going to be able to address those specific needs.

[Perikles]

The UK has quite a good education system, but only if you escape the so called terror of 'bad comprehensives'. Comprehensive schools have admissions based on where you live, and if you live in or near a bad area, you will pay the price with your education. Most Comprehensives are good though, and achieve good results. Shame that most of them are becoming over run with Chavs.....

Next comes the Grammar schools, the admissions to these schools are based on how well you do in a series of tests, called the 11+. They are generally free, unless they are private (see below) Grammar schools are IMO the best type of school as they allow smart working class kids to get some where in life and allow you to work with kids of a similar ability, but I may be biased as I go to one....

Lastly comes private schools, sometimes called Public schools (confusing, I know) Addmissions to these schools are mostly based on ability to pay, and may have a sort of test, but it is generally easier than the 11+. Grammar schools and Private shcools have the same standard of high education, except one is free and one is not....

Overall though the UK system is quite good, if a little under funded.

[antares24]

Well my girlfriend and a lot of my friends study at La Sapienza, the university of wich the article speak about in the first part, i know it quit well so i think i can say that the writer is telling only a part of the story.
The " classes are held in circus tents because there's no money to repair crumbling lecture halls" is true, if i remember well, only for one faculty that had so many new students that they didnt find enough space to accomodate the lessons for them, so they choose that as a temporary solution.
For the rest the university works quite well and has a prestigious name, but it is a bit overcrowded, infact i have decided to go to another new university here in Rome (thank god they have opened two more university to try to solve the overcrowd Sapienza problem) becouse in the last years more young people attend university, and that's a good thing, the problem is that more space and more funding are needed.
The high school too are quite good, with good teachers, but the problem is always the same, more money is needed to make things work better

OT: Perikles do you know why Ummon is no longer on this forum?