Dismounted Knights

**mrhamster1** · March 04, 2012, 08:56 PM

Hey, I thought 1.5 was going to include Toho's dismounted knights in the mod. What's up with not including it? Having dismounted knights helps the empire a lot of in terms of infantry. Would Toho's dismounted knights mod for 1.44 work for 1.5 too?

**paradamed** · March 04, 2012, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by mrhamster1

Hey, I thought 1.5 was going to include Toho's dismounted knights in the mod. What's up with not including it? Having dismounted knights helps the empire a lot of in terms of infantry. Would Toho's dismounted knights mod for 1.44 work for 1.5 too?

No, it wont work. You need to edit some files manually.

**Reiksfart** · March 05, 2012, 01:36 AM

Do the Empire really need help in terms of infantry in vanilla? Their units are already more powerful than they should be.

In terms of tabletop, greatswords are dismounted knights. No other difference apart from weapon choices.

**drillmaster** · March 05, 2012, 10:53 AM

For the record Greatswords are not knights. They are knighted infantrymen. They just have the title. They are not knights with the correct meaning of the term.
That's what I understand. But yeah there is not much need for more heavy infantry in the Empire. I think they could only be 0-1 at most just for roleplay resons.

**Ichon** · March 05, 2012, 01:59 PM

Greatswords, Nuln pikemen and some cannon are the only Empire units that might be strengthened. Everything else nearly needs a nerf. I find Greatswords nearly useless as they are. Swordsmen do better job and are cheaper. On tabletop Greatswords weren't a total kick ass unit but they were certainly tougher than CoW portrays them. I don't think Greatswords are knights at all, just the veteran state troops who have displayed great fighting skills and bravery and are rewarded with dwarf forged armor and given the honor of protecting a lord or forming the center of the Empire line. They should have the best armor of Empire aside from knights and lords while also having melee skills 2nd only to true elite units. Basically they are the elite of the state troops- doesn't mean they are the best the Empire has to offer as Warrior Priests, Witch Hunters, Knights, a couple other units have better melee skills but that is about it.

To me in CoW Greatswords have a bit too low of armor and the radius is too large making them fight Orcs etc 1 on 1 where Black Orcs have better stats. Black Orcs should have better stats that any Empire state troops except the Greatswords where things are almost equal. In my opinion at least Black Orc mobs should have stats lowered a bit and cost lowered as well while the Black Orc generals and all Orc generals should be buffed because as it stands you have to be extremely careful with Orc generals for at least dozen battles before they start getting enough ancillaries and traits you can pitch them into battle with only about 10% chance of death early in the fight.

**Reiksfart** · March 05, 2012, 09:37 PM

Just to note, I didn't say greatswords were knights, but share the same stats. In fact, greatswords are better than knights because of the stubborn rule, which translates to a higher morale in CoW. I do like the dismounted reiksguard using hand weapon and shield already in CoW, which is the strongest defensive rank and file infantry Empire have- hand weapon and shield plus full plate is a 2+ save in TT. Not sure it is worth adding a load more because of diminishing space in the EDU. Perhaps changing those dismounted Reiksguard to Panthers (which I think all Empire have access to?) would be the best choice. I might add that in myself.

I don't agree that greatswords should beat black orcs in CoW. Other than wearing full plate vs heavy armour and having a higher initiative (which is useless with always strike last from using 2H weapon), greatswords are outmatched. Armour is useless for both since the strength gain in both units nullifies any armour save. You do have a point about radius, and I assume greatswords are on a smaller base? Been a long time since I played TT. That is also difficult to implement in CoW exactly as in tabletop, so a compromise has to be found for overall balance between those two units and everything else. I believe I have greatswords done right in my submod. No complaints from my tester, who says what he thinks is wrong.

**Ichon** · March 06, 2012, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Reiksfart

I don't agree that greatswords should beat black orcs in CoW. Other than wearing full plate vs heavy armour and having a higher initiative (which is useless with always strike last from using 2H weapon), greatswords are outmatched. Armour is useless for both since the strength gain in both units nullifies any armour save. You do have a point about radius, and I assume greatswords are on a smaller base? Been a long time since I played TT. That is also difficult to implement in CoW exactly as in tabletop, so a compromise has to be found for overall balance between those two units and everything else. I believe I have greatswords done right in my submod. No complaints from my tester, who says what he thinks is wrong.

I don't think Greatswords should beat Black Orcs... they should be nearly equal (small edge to Black Orcs)with the regular Black Orc mobs and less than the generals with Black Orc BG. Main issue with them is radius and low armor. The dwarf forged armor they wear is steel and not equal to better Dwarven armor but should be close to knightly armor which is also steel and likely just made from more skilled smith. Black Orcs get most of their armor from goblins but its only heavy armor and not steel plate- although it is enhanced by Orc belief in its effectiveness.

**Pietrak** · March 06, 2012, 01:24 AM

From what I can gather, Black Orcs beat the Greatswords in TT by a wide margin.

Black Orcs have 1 more Strength and 1 more Toughness. Their Weapon Skills and Leaderships and Attacks are equal. Greatswords have higher Initiative but strike last anyway due to a special rule.

Full plate armor doesn't give the manlings enough edge to win vs Black Orcs.

The only thing is that Greatswords cost less points per model.
Isn't the size of the base the same for all infantry in game?

**Ichon** · March 06, 2012, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Pietrak

From what I can gather, Black Orcs beat the Greatswords in TT by a wide margin.

Black Orcs have 1 more Strength and 1 more Toughness. Their Weapon Skills and Leaderships and Attacks are equal. Greatswords have higher Initiative but strike last anyway due to a special rule.

Full plate armor doesn't give the manlings enough edge to win vs Black Orcs.

The only thing is that Greatswords cost less points per model.
Isn't the size of the base the same for all infantry in game?

Usually in TT Black Orcs are accompanying a leader though I guess it depends on the edition. I played TT mostly with older editions 5e and older. Right now Black Orcs can nearly lose to Halberdiers but crush Greatswords... I'd prefer the Greatswords give a closer battle instead of the Halberdiers while the Black Orcs should still win. The Black Orc generals on the other hand should be stronger as they are pretty much same as regular Black Orcs.

**Saladin** · March 06, 2012, 06:49 PM

to the official poster, with the exception of the reiksguard, black guard of morr, and sons of manann(and possibly knights encarmine, given their weapon choice) knights mostly fight on horse, as the armies of the empire depend on their devastating charges. the empire lacks any state-wide heavy cavalry in the official army book, most likely to emphasize the importance of the knightly orders but in other sources such as wfrp books they do mention provinces having their own cavalry, like demilancers and free riders. it wouldnt hurt lore wise to add in the dismounted knights but i would expand the recruiting time a lot more to prevent the empire from spawning knights.