[Submod] The King of Rivers and Hills. A complete overhaul of Westeros TW.

[Toho]

i think you guys should seriously ask The Last Kingdom permission to use their units, GRRM's story of the Andals invasion of the Westeros and the First Men is clearly a refrence to the Saxons and the Normans but it also correlates with the Romans and the Saxons...Hadrian's Wall for example...

every model presented by TLK is the exact setting you guys need, just recolor the shields, shirts and other very small cosmetic effects to represent houses and you are good.

[Noobio]

unconsiosly you gave us a preview of Balon and Thoros strat models

hey it's not like i posted my credit card's code number..
hope you like em although they are still prone to changes..if i can i'll try and put a face on Thoros and change a bit Balon's cape-sigil

problem is i'm no modeler, i just like skinning strat_models

regarding what Toho and MagUidir are saying, i can't say i actually have an opinion of my own, as i haven't done my "homework"

if Dux/other submod guys, agree and can provide the strat_models i'd love to try and texture em to fit the various factions..
also, i'd need some instructions, regarding how to treat heraldy..would they use it at the moment (like sewn on their battle clothes) or not ?
etc etc (in any case you gotta work with what you got)
*************************

[MagUidir]

i think you guys should seriously ask The Last Kingdom permission to use their units, GRRM's story of the Andals invasion of the Westeros and the First Men is clearly a refrence to the Saxons and the Normans but it also correlates with the Romans and the Saxons...Hadrian's Wall for example...

every model presented by TLK is the exact setting you guys need, just recolor the shields, shirts and other very small cosmetic effects to represent houses and you are good.

I think you hit the nail on the head Toho... Do you really think that the TLK models would fit this time in westeros though? I understand that they are saxons and vikings and both are what i kinda see the firstmen as but I guess the big difference is i see the first men with more fur and more brown/grey or dark colors where TLK is richly colored and beautiful. I dont see it as dark like i envision Westeros at the time. your thoughts?

[Gurkhal]

i think you guys should seriously ask The Last Kingdom permission to use their units, GRRM's story of the Andals invasion of the Westeros and the First Men is clearly a refrence to the Saxons and the Normans but it also correlates with the Romans and the Saxons...Hadrian's Wall for example...

every model presented by TLK is the exact setting you guys need, just recolor the shields, shirts and other very small cosmetic effects to represent houses and you are good.

You think? I kind of interperated the First Men vs Andals to be Celts vs Germans, with Rome left out.

Anyway an Andal Invasion mod would also be very sweet but it would have to work very differently from a Seven Kingdoms mod since I've understood it that at this time both Andals and First Men primarily lived in petty kingdoms. Only later did they gather into the major ones present when the Targaryens came.

But I could be wrong.

[MagUidir]

You think? I kind of interperated the First Men vs Andals to be Celts vs Germans, with Rome left out.

Anyway an Andal Invasion mod would also be very sweet but it would have to work very differently from a Seven Kingdoms mod since I've understood it that at this time both Andals and First Men primarily lived in petty kingdoms. Only later did they gather into the major ones present when the Targaryens came.

But I could be wrong.

well i definitely agree that it should have like a post Roman empire slash Dark ages feel to it. I agree that there were alot of petty kingdoms but still only a handful that were truly a real kingdom. I think that the Invasion of Aegon the Conqueror was more or less the same as William of Normandy when he invaded England. And the Andal invasion was like the Saxon migration to England when they pushed the Celts the the extremes of the island (Wales and Scotland).

[HannibalExMachina]

actual the andals remind me of the late bronze/early iron age indogermanic migrations, as these guys also brought iron working with them. so you should definetely seek out stuff among the antiquity or at least the dark age mods. oc, the andals already seem semi-motheistic and the concept is chivalry is noted, but given the timeframe, it wouldnt be as defined as the faith and knighthood in 300 AL (they brought the "warrior tradition of the knight.").

the mods description so far mixes up the timeframes imo, so perhaps you should choose either an andal invasion, andal expansion or a warring andals approach.

an andal invasion would play out "between 6 thousand and 4 thousands year before Aegon's Landing". "The Fingers were the place where the Andals first landed, to wrest from the First Men the place that is known today as the Vale[3], in successive waves they spread. The wars between the First Men and the Andals lasted hundreds of years,"

we dont know much about the intial phase, any wars would already be ongoing, and the andals more widespread than the vale for balance purposes.

we know few of the leaders, one would be Ser Artys Arryn . as he drove the last first men from the vale, he could be part of the andal expansion.

giving grrms timeframe ("They created great kingdoms of their own, but this process was somewhat slow, they expanded to the Iron Islands roughly two thousand years after their initial invasion.") a mod including the mudds should play out some centuries after the initial invasion ("Eventually, with Andal kings joining forces and extinguishing of House Mudd (the house of the River and the Hills kingdom of the First Men), the Andals were able to invade the North."), and the ironborn would still be unconquered. Dorne is described as "a confederation of bickering, feuding states.[4]" problematic here is that there were many petty andal kingdoms, about which we know hardly anything.

ie the hightowers were allied to the andals, though we dont know if they bowed to the first men gardeners or the andal gardeners.
as the gardners were founded by a mythical first man and continue to rule til AL, this is either a continuity error on grrms part or an indication that the reach was taken over by andals who continued the gardener line, perhaps by marriage orotherwise peaceful.


the warrings andals is probably easier, as there is much more information, like your list kings. the known kingdoms are established already, with the known ruling houses.
we dont know much about the riverlands though, only some houses of kings and that they were conquered first by the stormkings and then the ironborn. aparently, "The last native king was killed by Stormland invaders about 360 years before Aegon's Landing."

Harwyn Hardhand took the riverlands from Arrec the Storm King. being the grandfather of harren, thats probably a bit close to the targaryen invasion.
its said that under Qhored Hoare the ironmen reached the peak of their expansion, though they lost much of that afterwards and the riverlands were taken much later: "Under King Qhored Hoare the realm of the ironborn reached the peak of its expansion, and it was said that all the western coast of Westeros where the salt of the sea could be smelled or heard the crashing of waves were under their control. Although it is unlikely that this assertion is literal, since with all probability places like Oldtown or Lannisport have never been ruled from the Iron Islands, it is still remarkable that the ironborn could hold places as distant as the Arbor. ".

interesting for the riverlands are bracken and blackwood, though information is contradicing, they were either kings during the age of heros and bowed to the King of the Rivers and the Hills, (not to be confused with the andal Kingdom of the River) or their status ended when the andals came.

hope that helps in defining it a bit more.

[Dux]

actual the andals remind me of the late bronze/early iron age indogermanic migrations, as these guys also brought iron working with them. so you should definetely seek out stuff among the antiquity or at least the dark age mods. oc, the andals already seem semi-motheistic and the concept is chivalry is noted, but given the timeframe, it wouldnt be as defined as the faith and knighthood in 300 AL (they brought the "warrior tradition of the knight.").

the mods description so far mixes up the timeframes imo, so perhaps you should choose either an andal invasion, andal expansion or a warring andals approach.

an andal invasion would play out "between 6 thousand and 4 thousands year before Aegon's Landing". "The Fingers were the place where the Andals first landed, to wrest from the First Men the place that is known today as the Vale[3], in successive waves they spread. The wars between the First Men and the Andals lasted hundreds of years,"

we dont know much about the intial phase, any wars would already be ongoing, and the andals more widespread than the vale for balance purposes.

we know few of the leaders, one would be Ser Artys Arryn . as he drove the last first men from the vale, he could be part of the andal expansion.

giving grrms timeframe ("They created great kingdoms of their own, but this process was somewhat slow, they expanded to the Iron Islands roughly two thousand years after their initial invasion.") a mod including the mudds should play out some centuries after the initial invasion ("Eventually, with Andal kings joining forces and extinguishing of House Mudd (the house of the River and the Hills kingdom of the First Men), the Andals were able to invade the North."), and the ironborn would still be unconquered. Dorne is described as "a confederation of bickering, feuding states.[4]" problematic here is that there were many petty andal kingdoms, about which we know hardly anything.

ie the hightowers were allied to the andals, though we dont know if they bowed to the first men gardeners or the andal gardeners.
as the gardners were founded by a mythical first man and continue to rule til AL, this is either a continuity error on grrms part or an indication that the reach was taken over by andals who continued the gardener line, perhaps by marriage orotherwise peaceful.


the warrings andals is probably easier, as there is much more information, like your list kings. the known kingdoms are established already, with the known ruling houses.
we dont know much about the riverlands though, only some houses of kings and that they were conquered first by the stormkings and then the ironborn. aparently, "The last native king was killed by Stormland invaders about 360 years before Aegon's Landing."

Harwyn Hardhand took the riverlands from Arrec the Storm King. being the grandfather of harren, thats probably a bit close to the targaryen invasion.
its said that under Qhored Hoare the ironmen reached the peak of their expansion, though they lost much of that afterwards and the riverlands were taken much later: "Under King Qhored Hoare the realm of the ironborn reached the peak of its expansion, and it was said that all the western coast of Westeros where the salt of the sea could be smelled or heard the crashing of waves were under their control. Although it is unlikely that this assertion is literal, since with all probability places like Oldtown or Lannisport have never been ruled from the Iron Islands, it is still remarkable that the ironborn could hold places as distant as the Arbor. ".

interesting for the riverlands are bracken and blackwood, though information is contradicing, they were either kings during the age of heros and bowed to the King of the Rivers and the Hills, (not to be confused with the andal Kingdom of the River) or their status ended when the andals came.

hope that helps in defining it a bit more.

Thank you for this.

My aim was your described second scenario but with elements of the third. The vale, The westerlands, the Iron isles and the Stormlands will be united under Andal Kings. The Riverlands will be united under First men King and the North will be divided between stark and bolten and the Reach and Dorne will be divided as well.
I think that would be a good scenario and it would keep several familiar factions and add some interesting new ones.

What are the others opinions about this scenario?

[HannibalExMachina]

i see. ambitous, but not hopeless, kinda

a point i forgot for the warring andals: it also would include nymeria:"The Rhoynar lived in city-states along the vast network of the river Rhoyne until 700 years before Aegon's Landing, ".

[Noobio]

when exactly according to the Andals expansion, did the Rhoynar/Nymeria land ???

[HannibalExMachina]

weve only the 700 years, but as nymeria led them form start to finish...

[Noobio]

i think that mr.Martin uses millenia and centuries as if they were days

i propose to approach this like this

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

if we stick to the ancient age we should start from a central point (in this case House Mudd) and expand around it..mostly based on fiction
so even if we have specific names, we should better avoid basing our concepts fully on em

the timeline is really blurry and messy ,cause G.r.r. Martin wanted it to have a legendary feel (legends/mythology and History are different things)

so if we can't find/make a non-contradicting timeline and characters base then
-->maybe we could rename the mod into "Tales of Invasions" or something and just make a lore-respecting melting pot..we could, for example, start by changing the various campaign intro-messages, into something resembling a "narration" or someone reading a "legends-book" found in some old library )

(what i'm proposing is presenting it as a narration of legends..could be fun..you know like, a Westeros Age of Mythology lore-respectful mash-up approach..
--> no need for details that will only make teh contradictions stand out..we focus on the power balance/expansion dynamics-->total war effect )

so
-House Hoare seems ok..(IronAndals---> started their dynasty right after the Greyirons got extinct by the Andals)
or maybe H.Hoare should be swaped with h.Greyiron ?
-I have no idea what happens at Dorne
(as in when exactly according to the Andals expansion did the Rhoynar/Nymeria land..but we could cook something up )
-House Higtower could be ok too (as in F.Men/Andals mix, since they kinna surrendered/welllcomed em)
-No idea which Stark was the King of Winter at that period

so House Mudd--->
the last F.Men, Kings of River and Hills, have a central role as it is said that they only lost, when the Andal kings made an alliance against em -->
could mean the iron-Andals + Storm-Andals, sandwiching em --->
that led to the Neck /North being more accessible to the Andals--->
even though they never actually made it to breach it thanks to Moat Cailin-swamps-crannogmen defenses--->
that led to the isolating of the last F.Men in the North --->
which eventually led to the later forming of the 7 Kingdoms (with the NOrth being the last F.Men resort)..

sounds plausible and linear..

* then around this "Outline" we could add other factions and elements for balance and variety...like
-Boltons
-Gardener
-Yronwood
-other ?

OR

do the warring Andals concept!
cause it would mean that one should only have to rearrange a bit the starting factions/regions ownership and turns per year system, instead of also cultures/units/religions etc etc that would be pretty awfully difficult for starters

either way, i'd be glad to help whenever i can guys!

[Bloodraven]

[QUOTE=Dux;11121368]There have been numerous discussions about potential submods for when the main mod is released. Ideas varied from the age of heroes to the Blackfyre rebellion. Each idea has its pro's and coins, the age of heroes would be very interesting but is to large (hunderds of kingdoms) and there is almost no information, the Blackfyre rebellion on the other hand has no clearly defined borders and factions.

well, you do have the houses that supported the different dragons, (list at the bottom)
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...fyre_Rebellion

[Gurkhal]

I say about 100 years since the arrival of the first ships. So fairly early, but long enough for the assimilation of most of Westeros into the Andal culture.

To say that Andal culture would've replace First Men culture in mosf of Westeros after about 100 years sounds very, very, very opptimistic. I think that we're more talking about several millennia before the Andals and their culture had firmly taken over the South.

[QUOTE=Bloodraven;11182374]

There have been numerous discussions about potential submods for when the main mod is released. Ideas varied from the age of heroes to the Blackfyre rebellion. Each idea has its pro's and coins, the age of heroes would be very interesting but is to large (hunderds of kingdoms) and there is almost no information, the Blackfyre rebellion on the other hand has no clearly defined borders and factions.

well, you do have the houses that supported the different dragons, (list at the bottom)
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blackfyre_Rebellion

I think that's a very limited number of the Blackfyre Rebells. More than not there were hundreds of Houses who decided to go with the Black Dragon over the Red.

[Dux]

To say that Andal culture would've replace First Men culture in mosf of Westeros after about 100 years sounds very, very, very opptimistic. I think that we're more talking about several millennia before the Andals and their culture had firmly taken over the South.

yes I know that's why we've changed the time frame and are combining several known facts from andal wars and andal invasions.

We are going to release a beta version for the enhanced version of the mod.

This version is going to include these old factions (with new generals, ancillaries, family tree, territories and some new skins):
Stark
Arryn
Lannister
Martell
Baratheon/Stormkings

These "new" or reskinned factions(completely reskinned, new territories new generals new ancillaries etc):
Mudd from Tully
Gardener from Tyrell
Hoare from Greyjoy
Yronwood from Stannis/Joffrey
Bolton from Joffrey/Stannis

Optinial we'll add House Hightower from an old submod, but only with premission and enough support.

The final version will also include Targaryen and perhaps Darklyn of Duskendale (for the crownlands) and Dayne.

In this beta version we aren't going to have completely new units, just old units reskinned.

Progress:
Our skinner has already reskinned House Lannister, House Gardener, House Mudd and House Hoare.
House Gardener, House Mudd and House Hoare are also already reformed on the campaign map, we only lack faction symbols for the menu and new territories. The other factions are being worked on.

Two pics of Gardener units:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Murfmurf]

Nice work chaps.

[Dux]

Thanks, some more pics of progress:

Tristifer with the Riverlands at the height of his power.
King Tristifer IV Mudd, also known as the Hammer of Justice, was the fourth King of the Rivers and the Hills to bear that name. His crypt lies among the ruins of Oldstones.[1]
History
He ruled from the Trident to the Neck. He fought one hundred battles, winning ninety-nine and losing one. The one battle he lost was his last, where seven Andal kings attacked simultaneously. He raised the castle that became known as Oldstones, where it was the strongest in Westeros at the time of its construction. He was succeeded by his son, Tristifer V Mudd.[2]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Blackwood and House Mudd knights:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

King Qhored Hoare at the Arbor.
During the reign of King Qhored, the ironmen could rightfully claim that "wherever men can smell salt water or hear the crash of waves," his writ ran. The ironborn were at their peak of expansion, from the Arbor to Bear Island.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

House Gardener was too strong, so we've made house Hoare and house Lannister invade them from the start.

In this beta we'll only reskin the old faction units.

This is made for the enhanced submod. We're going to release this submod hopefully before the main mod comes out.

Next on the agenda is adding Oldstones, Tristifers mighty stronghold. After that House Yronwood and Bolton. Then renaming generals of some factions and then a release is getting close.

[Antoniusz]

Will there be hotseat option for this one?

[Dux]

Of course! Being one of the most active hotseat players myself it would be stupid not to add it

[Lordinquisitor]

I really like it, guys! Though, i wonder how appropriate it is to feature crossbows and plate since that was a very long time ago. Personally i wouldn`t include crossbows or heavy plate and focus mostly on mail and leather as armor, maybe with the odd breastplate.

[Dux]

True, we'll make the first men houses (Stark, Bolton and Mudd) more distinctive in the future. For the first version for the beta of this mod we'll just use reskins. We could delete the crossbows in this version already tough.