Which faction?

[PersianPrince]

Dear TWCenter forum users,

I downloaded this mod a few weeks ago, but couldn't really play, as went away abroad.
I played a few turns as the egyptians (ayyubids i think) - thinking that they would generate alot of money from rich lands - but now after looking throughgt a few posts, I see that the Abbasids in Baghdad have the potentially the best income to come.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me the best faction to play with in terms of everything i.e. military strenght, position on map to expand and general location to grow and prosper, unit roster (this is paticularly important) and wealth of lands. being new to all the factions sttrenghts and weaknesses would greatly help.

I would greatly appreciate any assistance on this.
and apologies if this kind of thread is already made ( i couldn't find it)

[nein]

try makuria first, it has a perfect strategic position... you can focus on egypt with no fear of surrounding nations. Plus it's fun to be the underdog: your troops cannot, generally, match an egyptian army in a field battle so use bridges to tactically pin them and your archers/javelins to do the killing. They start with one of the better initial economies too, oh and have some cool music

weaknesses: poorly armored troop types, few armored units
bordered by the ayyubid empire... which is also at war with you

strengths: has access to a large pool of easily recruitable and cheap units
many missile units
isolated start position lets you focus on one enemy at a time

once you get the ball rolling you will be able to recruit armies so fast that even a crushing defeat of your main army can be replaced in a few turns

[PersianPrince]

try makuria first, it has a perfect strategic position... you can focus on egypt with no fear of surrounding nations. Plus it's fun to be the underdog: your troops cannot, generally, match an egyptian army in a field battle so use bridges to tactically pin them and your archers/javelins to do the killing. They start with one of the better initial economies too, oh and have some cool music

weaknesses: poorly armored troop types, few armored units
bordered by the ayyubid empire... which is also at war with you

strengths: has access to a large pool of easily recruitable and cheap units
many missile units
isolated start position lets you focus on one enemy at a time

once you get the ball rolling you will be able to recruit armies so fast that even a crushing defeat of your main army can be replaced in a few turns

Thanks for the feedback Nein.

I think when I played as the Egyptians, I did the opposite, by conquering makuria first, I believe that is the faction which goes all the way down towards etheopia (?) will check them out, but which one of the muslim factions is perhaps the best to pick? As the game is revolving around the turmoil of the Islamic empire, I would preferably want to pick one of them. From the non muslim factions the one I am leaning most towards is Eastern Roman empire (byzantine), as I did play them quite alot in m2tw.

[zburanuki]

for me the byzantines,as the only enemy they have are the turks and by giving some regions (seleukeia and leukosia) to armenia and jerusalem you can have a little help against the turks.constantinople can match the income of baghdad and the majority of the byzantine cities have ports. as for the army they have 2 cavalry elite units that can make the difference,pelekyphoroi axemen are devastating infantry and spatharioi guard make excellent spear unit.you have to wait 7-8 turns to recover from the starting dept (-50k) but then your economy will flourish.after the turks you can choose where you want to expand,oh and something else prepare for the detoured crusaders in 1202-1204 outside constantinople,after that your west frontiers are safe.

[PersianPrince]

for me the byzantines,as the only enemy they have are the turks and by giving some regions (seleukeia and leukosia) to armenia and jerusalem you can have a little help against the turks.constantinople can match the income of baghdad and the majority of the byzantine cities have ports. as for the army they have 2 cavalry elite units that can make the difference,pelekyphoroi axemen are devastating infantry and spatharioi guard make excellent spear unit.you have to wait 7-8 turns to recover from the starting dept (-50k) but then your economy will flourish.after the turks you can choose where you want to expand,oh and something else prepare for the detoured crusaders in 1202-1204 outside constantinople,after that your west frontiers are safe.

Thanks for the help.

I think the first non muslim nation i will play will be the eastern roman empire (byzantium).
The crusades that you mention 1202 - 1204 I think were done by the venitians and they managed to sacked Constantinople, if I'm correct, so I like the actual historical element attached to it.

[Dago Red]

If you like an infantry centric faction I'd play the Ghorids. If you like hard hitting cavalry centric armies, play the Khwarezm Shah. Or light cav and horsearchers, try the Seljuks of Iran (but not the Rum yet, their roster is not yet fixed). Otherwise the Ayyubids you've chosen are a good choice with income potential and unit diversity and get to play head on with the Crusaders. The Khwarezm likewise get to play head on against the Mongols when they come. Those would be the 2 I'd chose in terms of game scripting excitement.

In terms of units though, no faction beats the Kingdom of Jerusalem in exciting roster, being unique in that they represent a collection of several "factions" in one (though I have had mine slightly modded for so long I forget exactly how they are represented in the official release so it might be less exciting). They also are at the heart of many of the game events, obviously. The Abbasid Caliphate has a similar feel to the unit roster but just aren't as appealing. They do have an infinitely better starting position though, especially right now without all the Seljuk splinter factions and Syrian city states in play.

[DirtyACE]

(but not the Rum yet, their roster is not yet fixed).

What's wrong with their roster exactly?

[Dago Red]

Yes and more, all the Ottoman units are ahistorical.

What's wrong with their roster exactly?

look here, this explains and with posted resources, including team responses with more accurate information.

[zburanuki]

personally i prefer the khwarezmians from the muslims and i have played 2-3 short campaigns with them. i think that with seljuks (of rum and iraq) are the most difficult muslim factions and i chose them because i like their heavy cavalry units in that mod and also i wanted to ''change'' their fate by defeating my beloved mongols.after the mongols try to expand towards India.

[k/t]

Probably still has janissary units.

[DirtyACE]

Thanks for the link Dago. Some very interesting things in there. I didn't realize that the current Seljuks of Rum are so inaccurate. There it also talks about that there should be an emergence of the Ottomans (to whom Janissaries belong). Will this be a completely separate faction or more like a transformation of Seljuks of Rum?

[PersianPrince]

Some really good advice guys.

I think I will continue with the Ayubbids, as I already started with them, perhaps then try out the Khazwermain mext, as nothing beats a faction with great cavalry.
I think what DirtyAce mentioned, is something that should be included in the future versions of an emerging Ottoman empire, as they started around 1299, well within the time parameters of this game.

[nein]

the khwarezmians have to deal with the mongols and the ghurids... so be ready for a really hard time

You also mentioned playing as the romans? One thing that may alarm you is that they start with a 50k debt... it's pretty easy to work off however. Basically a roman campaign is either very easy or quite difficult... depending upon whether the turks attack you early or give you space to breathe and develop your ports

[PersianPrince]

the khwarezmians have to deal with the mongols and the ghurids... so be ready for a really hard time

You also mentioned playing as the romans? One thing that may alarm you is that they start with a 50k debt... it's pretty easy to work off however. Basically a roman campaign is either very easy or quite difficult... depending upon whether the turks attack you early or give you space to breathe and develop your ports

Hi Nein,

I think the Khwarezmians have also many advantages, firstly what I have noticed is that when you begin a campaign, there are lots of rebel settlements scattered around your faction, so if you can manage to get them quickly then you can create a buffer zone, around your capital. Persia itself is a vast land, which can be a great advantage, if you are attacked (when the mongols come). btw do the mongols always come Persia first? or do they have a few route options (like m2tw, where they had 3 routes).

Yes the ERE do appeal to me, but so do the koj, both have traditionally great unit roster and someone mention that Constantine can be as rich as Baghdad. with KOJ if you attack the Ayyubid early and form and alliance with say Mukuria (sp?), then you can potentially secure Egypt and focus progressing eastwards.

Although I dont have that much experience to say things will work out like that.

[zburanuki]

The mongols always invade from samarqand and sack bukhara and the attack to urgench or khiva. As for constantinople you'll gain 11k-13k around 1200 and now i am in 1272 and i gain 19k (make sure you have a loyal and very very pious ruler inside constantinople). Also the 50k dept on the beginning is not that bad as every turn the byzantines gain 7k per turn and if you destroy some barracks and buildings on rhodes and varna around turn 7 you'l get out of the dept.

Now for he crusaders,surely on the northwest you are ok as ,much the armenians survive,but it's not the same on the east with the abbasids and ton the south with the ayyubids.The ayyubids tend to destroy the makurians (except in one campaign the makurians did the opposite) and also now the siege damascus so they are much closer to jerusalem and they are more tough to deal with them.On the other side,if the abbasids choose to expand westward the you'll have problem and you need to ally with georgians too.

[nein]

'I think the Khwarezmians have also many advantages, firstly what I have noticed is that when you begin a campaign, there are lots of rebel settlements scattered around your faction, so if you can manage to get them quickly then you can create a buffer zone, around your capital. Persia itself is a vast land, which can be a great advantage, if you are attacked (when the mongols come).'

there is alot of territory, although sparsely populated (settlements have alot of distance between one another). There are only a few regions between you and the ghurids, and they have a formiddable empire.


>btw do the mongols always come Persia first? or do they have a few route options (like m2tw, where they had 3 routes).

they always spawn near samarkhand, although their behaviour can be erratic. You can try seizing an alliance by trading a settlement to them... alliances are very valuable in bc as the ai cannot break them

>Yes the ERE do appeal to me, but so do the koj, both have traditionally great unit roster and someone mention that Constantine can be as rich as Baghdad. with KOJ if you attack the Ayyubid early and form and alliance with say Mukuria (sp?), then you can potentially secure Egypt and focus progressing eastwards.

yes constantinople can become very wealthy once you upgrade the merchant ports. As for the koj... they became a very easy faction in 2.3, you should have little trouble dealing with the ayyubids despite their vast empire. Seizing northern egypt will tear the heart out of it

As for the makurians, crush them so you can christianize their regions and make more money. No point in alliance just wipe the floor with them. Your greatest foe will be the goddamn ere, they will push through armenia and give you a real headache at antioch (your wealthiest region once upgraded). They also launch naval invasions... usually full stacks of levy troops, nothing a few knights cant deal with. Punish them by stealing cyprus, they will often give in to a ceasefire at this point, but never trust them

[PersianPrince]

'I think the Khwarezmians have also many advantages, firstly what I have noticed is that when you begin a campaign, there are lots of rebel settlements scattered around your faction, so if you can manage to get them quickly then you can create a buffer zone, around your capital. Persia itself is a vast land, which can be a great advantage, if you are attacked (when the mongols come).'

there is alot of territory, although sparsely populated (settlements have alot of distance between one another). There are only a few regions between you and the ghurids, and they have a formiddable empire.


>btw do the mongols always come Persia first? or do they have a few route options (like m2tw, where they had 3 routes).

they always spawn near samarkhand, although their behaviour can be erratic. You can try seizing an alliance by trading a settlement to them... alliances are very valuable in bc as the ai cannot break them

>Yes the ERE do appeal to me, but so do the koj, both have traditionally great unit roster and someone mention that Constantine can be as rich as Baghdad. with KOJ if you attack the Ayyubid early and form and alliance with say Mukuria (sp?), then you can potentially secure Egypt and focus progressing eastwards.

yes constantinople can become very wealthy once you upgrade the merchant ports. As for the koj... they became a very easy faction in 2.3, you should have little trouble dealing with the ayyubids despite their vast empire. Seizing northern egypt will tear the heart out of it

As for the makurians, crush them so you can christianize their regions and make more money. No point in alliance just wipe the floor with them. Your greatest foe will be the goddamn ere, they will push through armenia and give you a real headache at antioch (your wealthiest region once upgraded). They also launch naval invasions... usually full stacks of levy troops, nothing a few knights cant deal with. Punish them by stealing cyprus, they will often give in to a ceasefire at this point, but never trust them

Thanks for your valuable insight +1 rep

[PersianPrince]

The mongols always invade from samarqand and sack bukhara and the attack to urgench or khiva. As for constantinople you'll gain 11k-13k around 1200 and now i am in 1272 and i gain 19k (make sure you have a loyal and very very pious ruler inside constantinople). Also the 50k dept on the beginning is not that bad as every turn the byzantines gain 7k per turn and if you destroy some barracks and buildings on rhodes and varna around turn 7 you'l get out of the dept.

Now for he crusaders,surely on the northwest you are ok as ,much the armenians survive,but it's not the same on the east with the abbasids and ton the south with the ayyubids.The ayyubids tend to destroy the makurians (except in one campaign the makurians did the opposite) and also now the siege damascus so they are much closer to jerusalem and they are more tough to deal with them.On the other side,if the abbasids choose to expand westward the you'll have problem and you need to ally with georgians too.

+1 rep thanks