Did the Protestants Really Get it Right?

[Zenith Darksea]

As you might imagine, my answer is 'no'. But I'll elaborate.

By the time of the reformation, many in the West felt that the Roman Catholic Church had gone beyond the original values of the early Christian Church, and wanted to reform it. Be it Henry VIII (who was just a Catholic who wanted a divorce), John Calvin (a lawyer who thought that he could be a theologian) or Martin Luther (I don't know much about him, alas), there were many Westerners who felt that the Catholic Church had gone off the rails.

As an Orthodox I agree completely. However, the Protestants, in my own opinion, owed a great debt to their extremely Western, Latin manner of thinking and their Catholic, Augustinian heritage. The Orthodox sometimes formulate it like this - even if the Catholic Church is a+ and the Protestant Churches are a-, the Protestants still have that Catholic 'a' in their equation, and did not go back beyond the Roman Catholic philosophy.

As a result, I would argue that they went the wrong way. They saw the problems, but their solution to their uniquely Western issues was to pile more Western thought onto them, creating even greater difficulties and at the same time cutting off the Apostolic succession. However, they did not think to look back to the Christian East. Protestants claim to wish to return to the 'original' Christian Church, yet they have created their own fantasy version of it, when they should have been looking back to the East, the birthplace of Christianity.

So, do you think that the Protestants got it right?

[Ó Cathasaigh]

Yes, it still has the basics of Catholicism. It has Jesus/God's messages. It's less ceremonial and a little more laid back, at least today. I'm not sure what it was like when it first split.

[IamthePope]

Martin Luther (I don't know much about him)

I'll sum him up for you in one sentence. He was a heretic.

As a result, I would argue that they went the wrong way. They saw the problems, but their solution to their uniquely Western issues was to pile more Western thought onto them, creating even greater difficulties and at the same time cutting off the Apostolic succession. However, they did not think to look back to the Christian East. Protestants claim to wish to return to the 'original' Christian Church, yet they have created their own fantasy version of it, when they should have been looking back to the East, the birthplace of Christianity.

I think you nailed it on the head. Without the apostalic succession that has been preserved by the western and eastern faiths, the Protestant sects are irreversably lost. I think Charles V summed up the foolishness of protestantism when he said "how can [Luther] be right and fifteen centuries of Christians be wrong".

[Sam]

I think Charles V summed up the foolishness of protestantism when he said "how can [Luther] be right and fifteen centuries of Christians be wrong".

That is a massively fallacious statement (ad populum).

[Garbarsardar]

I think you nailed it on the head. Without the apostalic succession that has been preserved by the western and eastern faiths, the Protestant sects are irreversably lost. I think Charles V summed up the foolishness of protestantism when he said "how can [Luther] be right and fifteen centuries of Christians be wrong".

Was that somewhat similar to the argument of the Holy Inquisition towards Galileo Galilei, by any chance?

[IamthePope]

Was that somewhat similar to the argument of the Holy Inquisition towards Galileo Galilei, by any chance?

It might help to re-read the case before making a general analogy between two very different subjects. Galileo's trial was about more than the idea of heliocenticity, and the Catholic Church had traditionally not taken the biblical narrative literally as protestants are prone to do. Anyway, it's a complicated matter that is often simplified into an indictment of Catholicm versus Science when it's clearly not.

Well.... given that they were about, say, the Terracentric universe, it seems that fifteen centuries of Christians can quite well be wrong...

The terracentric version of the universe was a product of Ptolemaic greek science. The Catholic church only continued to teach the science of the Greeks in the universities of Western europe. The metaphysical theology of the faith did not include a teaching of the cosmos a either terracentric or heliocentric. This was unknown at the time and open to debate within Catholic circles.

[Zapp]

I think Charles V summed up the foolishness of protestantism when he said "how can [Luther] be right and fifteen centuries of Christians be wrong".

The thing is, catholics can't say protestants are wrong, and neither can protestants say catholics are wrong. I saw a reeeally long thread about hypocrits, so I thought you guys got it now, but well, as a reminder

[King Henry V]

During the whole of the Late Middle Ages and the beginning of the Renaissance, the Church was astoundingly corrupt. The sale of indulgences (originally monetary support for the Crusades, but that pretext had long been dropped), relic trading and the pilgrim business was astounding in its sheer scale. Bishops even owned brothels! Erasmus of Rotterdam had tried to reform the Church from withing, however, this had been stiffly opposed. Reform was desperately needed, and since it could not be done internally, there had to be a split. In that perspective, the Protestants did get it right.
However, it is less easy to determine the validity of protestantism's theological claims, as protestantism is a very broad set of religions. It ranges from the fairly moderate Anglicanism (which itself has loads of alternatives, from the Calvinistic-like Low Church to Anglo-Catholocism) to the radical Calvinistic and Zwinglian movements, which eschewed all ceremony and decoration and whose beliefs rested firmly on the idea of predestination of the soul.
The Protestants consider themselves as continuing in the Apostolic succession, as they (tried) to return to the simplicity of the Church during the days of the Apostles and the early Christians.

[Søren]

The thing is, catholics can't say protestants are wrong, and neither can protestants say catholics are wrong. I saw a reeeally long thread about hypocrits, so I thought you guys got it now, but well, as a reminder

Pardon?

Presumably you are reffering to the erroneous thought that Christian's being told 'not to judge' means that they should not decide which is right or wrong. Which is no more than an urban legend - the apostles, for instance, certianly did nothing of the kind. Read St. Paul's letters, for example.

It's interesting how it is only ever applied to disputes about Christian doctorine - nobody expects the logical continuation of that train of thought which would be that Christians would not be allowed to agree or disagree with anything; ranging from the trivial, such as a result in a game of chess, or the more important, such as a government decision.

[Zenith Darksea]

I think Charles V summed up the foolishness of protestantism when he said "how can [Luther] be right and fifteen centuries of Christians be wrong".

Yes, absolutely.

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, it seems to me that if you hold the Christian tradition handed down from Christ to His Apostles and then on to their Orthodox Church, you can't be doing too much wrong.

[Tom Paine]

Well, it seems to me that if you hold the Christian tradition handed down from Christ to His Apostles and then on to their Orthodox Church, you can't be doing too much wrong.

Which assumes an awful lot... and takes it, of course, on faith; primarily that the Orthodox church is directly descended from and following Christ's preachings and his idea of a Church...

I think you nailed it on the head. Without the apostalic succession that has been preserved by the western and eastern faiths, the Protestant sects are irreversably lost. I think Charles V summed up the foolishness of protestantism when he said "how can [Luther] be right and fifteen centuries of Christians be wrong".

Well.... given that they were about, say, the Terracentric universe, it seems that fifteen centuries of Christians can quite well be wrong...

[Zenith Darksea]

No, it wasn't.

[Silver Guard]

Yes it was, the Catholic church branded Galileo a heretic because his views opposed those the church authorised over centuries, eg everything revolves around the Earth (reminds me of a comment "my mother said everything revolves around me....ahem")

[Zenith Darksea]

Which assumes an awful lot... and takes it, of course, on faith; primarily that the Orthodox church is directly descended from and following Christ's preachings and his idea of a Church...

Well, it's pretty well historically documented, as it happens. If you go from the writings of St Ignatius of Antioch (consecrated as Bishop of Antioch by St John the Evangelist, one of the Apostles) through the Church Fathers and down to today, you'll see that there a very, very sound basis for believing so. In fact, it assumes very little, and rather less than the belief that many of the more extreme Protestants hold, to wit that originally there was some sort of Protestant Church that vanished instantaneously and became Orthodox/Roman Catholic...

The other question of course is that if the Orthodox Church was not said original Church, then where could it possibly have popped up from? Did a fully-formed network of bishops suddenly spring up overnight for the Council of Nicaea (incidentally, in case you're unsure, the answer is 'no').

Well.... given that they were about, say, the Terracentric universe, it seems that fifteen centuries of Christians can quite well be wrong...

Gosh, let's not confuse the issue or anything. That particular aspect of cosmology is not actually relevant to the particular theology in question and, considering that the Apostles did not hand on a view on the Heliocentric/Terracentric debate, is a rather dangerous distraction from the issue at hand. And on this point, the views of that particular generation of Roman Popes cannot be said to represent those of the Apostles, considering firstly that the Apostles apparently did not hold views on this matter, and also that the Latin Church had by this time gone into schism.

[Kino]

Deleted by user.

[Tom Paine]

He betrayed? He was forced not to publish a book and was then forced to publish an argument he had proven false and give it equal credence to the truth. As a scientist, he was himself betrayed!

[Zenith Darksea]

Anyway, this isn't meant to be a discussion about the various models of the cosmos; it's meant to be a discussion about Protestantism and whether or not the Reformation went in the right direction (or if it should have gone anywhere at all).

[Zenith Darksea]

That's just the point though - was it actually that simple? And if so, was it simple in the same regard?

Considering that Christianity was an Eastern religion, were the Protestants right to reform it along traditionally Western lines of thought?

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Well if protestants are not right then why don't you see God getting angry and smiting them with fire and brimestone