Ireland to hold referendum on EU Fiscal Treaty

[Vizsla]

Reuters

When the Greeks tried to hold a referendum on their bailout the EU made them cancel it and forced their Prime Minister to resign.
Will the Irish be allowed to hold one?
Their Attorney General says it is a legal requirement so backing out could be difficult.

Will the Irish vote No?
The Irish have form for voting No to EU referendums. All the major political parties in Ireland will campaign for a Yes vote but the population is getting less and less keen as austerity gets worse and worse.

What would the consequences for Europe be if Ireland rejects this treaty?

Ireland cannot stop the process since a quorum of 12 states brings the treaty into force, but it would be politically untenable to create a new eurozone structure that left one member in limbo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...ens-chaos.html

The last time the Irish voted No to a European treaty they were made to have another referendum because No was the wrong answer. Same again?

[General Brittanicus]

This just seems like a waste of money on the part of the Irish government. I expect the Irish will vote yes in the referendum, but it wouldn't matter even if they didn't since they'd just have to spend even more money on another referendum in order to try and get the right result. Perhaps it would be better for their government to just say yes right at the start and save themselves a whole lot of money.

[Blau&Gruen]

This is democracy, the search for "La volonté générale".

Comhghairdeas leis an vótálaí Gaeilge*



*Congratulations to the Irish voter

[Mangalore]

When the Greeks tried to hold a referendum on their bailout the EU made them cancel it and forced their Prime Minister to resign.
Will the Irish be allowed to hold one?
Their Attorney General says it is a legal requirement so backing out could be difficult.

The difference is that Ireland requires a referendum constitutionally. The Greek PM suddenly brought up the topic of a referendum after a deal was reached with the EU partners. This smelled of betraying the agreement by changing the conditions after everyone had signed up to a particular course of action.

None is surprised about a referendum in Ireland when the Irish constitution needs amending (there are no referenda about EU treaties).

The last time the Irish voted No to a European treaty they were made to have another referendum because No was the wrong answer. Same again?

This suggestion they were made to vote until agreeing is nearly fradulent. The second referendum had removal of articles, amending of articles and exclusion rights to Ireland the first referendum had not. It is quite normal to submit a changed law that failed in a vote (in parliament or elsewhere) again, particularly when the majority or opinions shifted in the meantime. That is even part of legislative processes in most parliamentary democracies. One house votes yes, the other kicks it back with a no, changes are made, second house says yes, judiciary objects, amendments are made, law passes, new governement is inaugurated, vote is passed to amend or wholy scrap the former law again, rinse repeat etc.
In contrast to that example which would partly be bad lawwriting it is far more understandable in such a referendum, including the fact that the referendum might be necessary only because of a very specific sub paragraph of the changes and thus ceases to be necessary if said paragraph which touches topics necessitating referenda vanishes. That is also not evil, it is the complexity of constitutional law.

That is what actually happened when the EU constitution failed. Of course, 90+ % of the agreements were still the same when transferred to treaty amendments because they were part of earlier already ratified treaties (which the constitution would have included in its text completely), were simply formal changes to existing treaties or simply adapted not to have the changes that required constitutional reforms in the member states. This is the reason the cross section of actual changes for the second approach were so minor. The vast majority of content of the EU constitution were already binding law in all EU member states through international treaties. Alot of the other changes were non controversial when looked at from a constitutional point of view and the last few bits were scrapped.
The main change was to have it in one treaty, not in half a dozen with dozens of alterations and amendments each though oviously a EU constitution would carry an entirely different level of clout.


That said, no clue how the Irish think atm. A no would certainly stress the will of the countries mainly paying the whole rescue packages at this time. France might look to get out since they have enough trouble on their own, germany would question why they should still bother instead of taking the popular stance of not helping anymore so a no would most likely start a big row of crisis management.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

That said, no clue how the Irish think atm.

To be honest I don't either. Most (?) Irish people seem to be pretty reasonable, are swayed by centrist political arguments and attribute our economic success to the European Union.

However there are also a large number of hardcode Republican types who see no difference between British domination and EU membership - they're both foreign powers invading our sovereignty. To them any EU agreements, no matter how beneficial, are treason and our ancestors who fought for indepedence would be ashamed by them. Irish Euroskepticism has a lot in common with the British version.

[bigfootedfred]

Every step of the way has been deceit and lies. Anti democracy, anti peoples choice.
Some of us just don't agree with that. You can sit there quoting European agreements all day long.
People didn't get a vote, those who did were ignored or made to vote again.

Some of us, like me, would in fact be the EU's biggest supporters if it hadn't become what it has.
Seems like many cannot let go of their dream so they make one excuse after another, sounding more and more like mindless robots. "does not compute, EU agreement was signed, does not compute, people want to vote, does not compute, must create EU dream".
I remember the Lisbon treaty debate on here, how it 'wasn't really the same constitution the dutch and French voted against' it was just 'tidying up'. For fecks sake, the EU didn't even keep to what it signed in the end. Bail outs anyone?

-------

Ireland may well hold a vote, however if the answer is not the one wanted over in 'Europe', it wont matter. as we have seen before.

[Mangalore]

...
People didn't get a vote, those who did were ignored or made to vote again.

...

Sorry, my problem with that that it seems most people don't even know how their democracy works or politics for that matter when they whine about this. It is actually unconstitutionally to change procedures of your political system without a vote just to make a vote on some other issue - which seems what alot of people demanded ignoring the repercussions. The Irish actually are quite good to have such a procedure in place, but that means they have to endure real politics and policy making and Bismarck made no jokes when he was saying that you don't actually want to know how politics are done.

[Ciabhán]

However there are also a large number of hardcode Republican types who see no differenc between British domination and EU membership - they're both foreign powers invading our sovereignty. To them any EU agreements, no matter how beneficial, are treason and our ancestors who fought for indepedence would be ashamed by them. Irish Euroskepticism has a lot in common with the British version.

This would be me and about 95% of my family, friends, acquaintances, and folks at the local. Trading one foreign government that we're not culturally all that different from for another made up of peoples we aren't as similar to seems like a step backwards.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

This just seems like a waste of money on the part of the Irish government. I expect the Irish will vote yes in the referendum, but it wouldn't matter even if they didn't since they'd just have to spend even more money on another referendum in order to try and get the right result. Perhaps it would be better for their government to just say yes right at the start and save themselves a whole lot of money.

The government does not want a vote they have no choice as its in our constitution that we are required to have one.If we are giving power away we require a vote.
I think we will vote no.
Our government is trying to scare us already.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/v...nd-541656.html

Lets leave the euro and take on the British pound as our currancy.Then we will have a united Ireland as part of the united kingdom.And England,Ireland north and south and Scotland and Wales will be united.
Let our islands stand against european austerity.

[Condottiere 40K]

If it wasn't for the waste of public funds, this would be an interesting exercise.

[hellheaven1987]

Would there be option "no" on the ticket?

[saglam2000]

EU should force Ireland's PM to resign and put the nation under the personal control of Merkel.

[magpie]

EU should force Ireland's PM to resign and put the nation under the personal control of Merkel.

The one guy that most certainly did not want a referendum was the Irish PM He is signing up to the treaty anyway. However we in Ireland have what too some may be inconvient, a Constitution which is designed to protect the interests of the Irish citizens, against let us say Government of the day interference with certain rights of the citizens.
Now if the People vote No it means Ireland will not be able to go to the eurozone personal lending agency for large loans at low for the moment interest rates in the future.
It will not mean leaving the euro as a currency and just may give a little more leeway for Ireland to pursue an economic policy not dictated by the eurozone tecnocrats?

[Ahlerich]

there we go again. germany is the new usa for europeans or: what usa is to the world, germany is to europe.
we have to learn to deal with that i guess. if i would think germany cut itself a nice deal in europe i would not care. however it looks more like germany let itself soaked into it and now we are so tied with the europeam crisis that it will take us down with it.
i just wonder if germany will be allowed the option to default in the end.

i am curious for the result of the irish referendum though.
for germany i can say that resistance towards the eu crisis handeling and merkels policies are rising. one is now allowed to speak openly about defaults for instance. last year that was almost forbidded to politicians.
in france a socialist president might be elected which will also bring change.

who knows how this continues, change is wanted though

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

If Germany gets too big for her jackboots we will send in the Russians again....

I am sure we will vote no.
Why cant we just spend the money we make instead of taking out loans.
You dont see me getting a ferrari on loan then saying oh no derpy derp i cant pay it back.Thats the way you run a house.You budget your money.Maybe we need Germany to run things.As our leaders are as bad as the last shower of baboons.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...Cn2U36bk0uLgGw They are cracking.A man with a concience at last.

[magpie]

Hmm Tom, Thats going to put a certain party leader under pressure. I can see the party either splitting or kicking him out.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0302/treaty.html He already signed it today even though we have not voted yet.
Vote no and leave him with egg on his face.

Speaking to journalists later, Mr Kenny refused to categorically rule out a second referendum on the issue.

We will keep voting till we vote the way he wants after more scare mongering and propaganda by our dear leaders.Hang them from the gallows i say.

[magpie]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0302/treaty.html He already signed it today even though we have not voted yet.
Vote no and leave him with egg on his face.


We will keep voting till we vote the way he wants after more scare mongering and propaganda by our dear leaders.Hang them from the gallows i say.

What is surprising, The treaty he has signed has not yet had the details worked out. The devil will be in the small print!
Oh well it seems to be an Irish prime minister thing to sign blank cheques on behalf of the citizens
I just wonder how he is going to sell an unfinished treaty to us. He and his cronies will probably get Steven King to write the script.

[jamson]

It doesnt matter if they do have one the EU will just keep forcing them to vote over and over again until the EU and its cronies get the answer it wants like last time, so called Democracy for you.