"No Atheists in Foxholes"? Tell that to these guys ...

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

... check out the (US) Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, who beg to differ with this commonly heard cliche.

Their roll-call of Atheists in Foxholes, in Cockpits, on Ships and Hitting the Beach is also interesting, especially the stories these military atheists tell of blatant disrespect for their beliefs and outright discrimination. Like the guy who was told that he couldn't have 'Atheist' on his dogtags, that he had to accept 'Protestant/No Preference' and that 'you'll thank me when you're in Heaven' (God checks your dogtags before letting you in? WTF?)

I could relate to the anecdotes about people, when told you are an atheist, simply don't believe you. I've encountered that myself and simply can't understand it. Do I disbelieve them when they tell me they are a Christian?

[Ó Cathasaigh]

"No Atheists in Foxholes"

wasn't that said first by a christian veteren?

[Sétanta]

Theists disrespect their beliefs. I didn't think atheists had any beliefs...

[Atheist Peace]

Theists disrespect their beliefs. I didn't think atheists had any beliefs...

Then you thought wrong. It's fully possible that one can be an atheist and have no beliefs, but atheism doesn't imply no beliefs. That's Nihilism, Atheism just means lack of a belief in any deities.

[Sétanta]

Then you thought wrong. It's fully possible that one can be an atheist and have no beliefs, but atheism doesn't imply no beliefs. That's Nihilism, Atheism just means lack of a belief in any deities.

What do atheists believe in?

[Atheist Peace]

What do atheists believe in?

You really lack understanding that much? Jeez... I'll explain, then.

Atheism is the lack of a belief in any god/deity. The Tooth Fairy is not a god, so Atheism does not imply a lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy. Therefore, an Atheist may or may not believe in the Tooth Fairy, but whether they do so, or not, does not affect their status as an Atheist. Atheism only applies to gods, it does not require any standing on other possible beliefs. Being an Atheist only means that one does not believe in any gods, it doesn't have anything to do with other beliefs. The question "what do atheists believe in?" is a completely nonsensical one.

edit: Neb basically said it, too.

[Sidus Preclarum]

What do atheists believe in?

the non-existence of God.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

"No Atheists in Foxholes"

wasn't that said first by a christian veteren?

It's first attributed to WWII journalist, Ernie Pyle. I believe it was first published in a report from Okinawa in Reader's Digest in 1945.

I didn't think atheists had any beliefs...

Okay, theists disrespect their right to be free to believe or not believe as they see fit and live accordingly. Insisting they pray, giving them latrine duty if they elect not to attend religious services and claiming that their non-belief disrespects the beliefs of others (!!! that one is totally bizarre) ain't exactly respecting their rights to free thought on religious matters.

[Gillam I]

Im an Atheist, but if i was in a foxhole i would be praying and swearing for god lol!

[Sétanta]

Okay, theists disrespect their right to be free to believe or not believe as they see fit and live accordingly. Insisting they pray, giving them latrine duty if they elect not to attend religious services and claiming that their non-belief disrespects the beliefs of others (!!! that one is totally bizarre) ain't exactly respecting their rights to free thought on religious matters.

It is a religious military. Who ever accused them of being fair and unbiased? Sure atheists should not be treated differently.

[IamthePope]

It is a religious military. Who ever accused them of being fair and unbiased? Sure atheists should not be treated differently.

While I understand that most rights and privileges of being a united states citizen are altered or suspended in some way upon entrance into the military, is the separation of church and state also subject to alteration?

[Ahiga]

While I understand that most rights and privileges of being a united states citizen are altered or suspended in some way upon entrance into the military, is the separation of church and state also subject to alteration?

If our Military is to become a Christian Military, then we may essentially be waving a flag to the Muslim's and the world that we are in fact on a religious Crusade in the Middle east. Whether or not our purpose brought us there, having a military that has the subject of separation between church and state (in this case, having an official religion for the military) removed would help their slander of us. We'd be put on the same level as they in the eyes of some - They came and killed civilians and soldiers for their religion, we are comming to kill civilians and soldiers and re-establish governments for our religion.

Perhaps in olden times when you would have had pretty much only christian Soldiers this would be fine, but the modern day army must be home to christians, muslims, jews, buddhists, and peoples of varying religions or beliefs (or lack of beliefs). I had done looking into of persecutions awhile back, and found a wiki article on the subject - bear in mind that wiki is not entirely reliable, though in this case it has sources to back it up: "In 1999 a group of conservative Christian groups was formed on the initiative of Bob Barr. The group asked US citizens not to enlist or re-enlist in the U.S. Army until the Army terminates the on-base freedoms of religion, speech and assembly for all Wiccan soldiers." - Scroll down to Contemporary - united states

Now, thankfully the law did not go into effect & the fools had hardly any power behind their attempts (And it's attempt can be a way to show that there must be some sort of wiccian minority in the military. According to the Yahoo article linked below, 1,800 active duty soldiers practice the faith), but it does offer a glimpse of the potential of what could happen if we have the separation of church and state be undone in the Military. In fact, there was a documented case of a Wiccian solder who died in Afganistan being denied the right to place a religious momento of this faith on his tombstone: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060530/...tkBHNlYwM3MTg-


I am not concerned with the inability to put atheist on your dog tags. What I am concerned about is the concept of having our military return to the origins of a christian one (Which is the behavior Iamthepope seems to put foward, by suggesting as rights of a citizen can be removed when joining the military, so -could- the separation of church and state), which would not only be odd (A religious military for a secular state), but also an incredibly slippery slope, where discrimination which occurs already (A rarity compared to that within many islamic states) would have a place to fester and grow.

[Neb]

Depends on the athiest. I believe cheese+crackers = start of a good day (okay I mad that up), but I'm an athiest because I don't believe in any higher beings.

-Neb

[RusskiSoldat]

I believe there are a bit more athiests than jedi knights, though.

[Farnan]

Why is there no Atheist dog-tag? Well I believe the only time that would matter is if you died they would choose who to give you your Last Rites, and it may deal with what type of Chaplain you are sent to if you need spiritual guidance. Since there are no Atheist Chaplains (that destroys the whole purpose) and I'm not sure about Last Rites, I don't think that an Atheist dog-tag would mean anything...

(Though I could be wrong and there could be more applications of dog-tags)

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Why is there no Atheist dog-tag?

There are 'Atheist' dog tags - see photo here.

Well I believe the only time that would matter is if you died they would choose who to give you your Last Rites

If I was a soldier and I was mortally wounded, I wouldn't want a chaplain bugging me in my last moments. And I and my family sure as hell wouldn't want a funeral with prayers and invocations of God or gods. One of the guys on the MAAF site talks about having to stand by while a comrade of his - a Buddhist by background and agnostic by belief - was given a standard Protestant Christian funeral simply because some bureaucrat decided it wasn't worth listing his real beliefs (probably because they didn't conform to their own).

and it may deal with what type of Chaplain you are sent to if you need spiritual guidance. Since there are no Atheist Chaplains (that destroys the whole purpose) and I'm not sure about Last Rites, I don't think that an Atheist dog-tag would mean anything...

It might mean the chaplains would know to stay away and let the poor atheist die in peace.

[Hub'ite]

Once you join the military you WILL become religious. In bootcamp every sunday EVERYONE is at church, doesn't matter if your Christian or Atheist.

[Atheist Peace]

Once you join the military you WILL become religious. In bootcamp every sunday EVERYONE is at church, doesn't matter if your Christian or Atheist.

So... going to church necessitates being religious?

[Hub'ite]

So... going to church necessitates being religious?

No I was trying to be funny, guess it didn't work.

[Atheist Peace]

No I was trying to be funny, guess it didn't work.

Okay, sorry for misunderstanding you then. I'm sure, though, that you'll understand how one might not interpret your post as being in jest, it wasn't exactly obvious. :wink: