McCain comments on the Iraq conflict

[Gaius Baltar]

One of the things I would do if I were president would be to sit the Shiites and the Sunnis down and say, 'Stop the ********.'"
-- Sen. John McCain

Well, with great plans like this its no wonder we are a world leader. Obviously this brillant insight should make McCain the front runner for the 2008 GOP nomination.

[Atheist Peace]

I have a feeling that quote is taken out of context.

[Denny Crane!]

Besides which, its not a bad idea.

Peter

[Red Harvest]

Besides which, its not a bad idea.

Peter

Indeed it shows that McCain realizes that this is a civil war, and that we cannot stop it ourselves at this juncture. Instead he recognizes that the participants must see a reason to halt it. The U.S. has not really had control of the situation for several years. Dubya yielded the initiative early on, because he never had a workable post war plan. McCain believed we needed a lot more troops to secure the nation and allow rebuilding and progress. His counsel and others were ignored.

[The Fish]

Personally, I think patronizingly lecturing two rival religious groups with centuries of conflict in their history won't produce particularly great results. McCain is a stand-up guy and he has principles, but ever since he decided to run for President, he's turned into a total doofus.

[Denny Crane!]

Personally, I think patronizingly lecturing two rival religious groups with centuries of conflict in their history won't produce particularly great results. McCain is a stand-up guy and he has principles, but ever since he decided to run for President, he's turned into a total doofus.

You don't believe negotiation and mediation are a good idea?

Whether the conversation is patronising or not getting people around a table and talking would be a first step and I think you mistake patronisation with blunt language

Peter

[danzig]

You don't believe negotiation and mediation are a good idea?

Whether the conversation is patronising or not getting people around a table and talking would be a first step and I think you mistake patronisation with blunt language

Peter

How can you begin to negotiate and mediate with all chaos, killings, political moves etc going on? Yeah its the heart of the matter broken down to the simplest term but 'stop the ********' pretty much sums up what is required to move to that step of negotiation.

[Removed_user_012521]

Well, with great plans like this its no wonder we are a world leader. Obviously this brillant insight should make McCain the front runner for the 2008 GOP nomination.

And whats your insight? Whats your plan? Or is all you can do is attack McCain cause he's conservative?

[Tom Paine]

And whats your insight? Whats your plan? Or is all you can do is attack McCain cause he's conservative?

Well I guess its better than the lack of plan of the current GOP leader, yeah...
Seriously. Its utterly impractical and more than likely to lead to violence, as each side knows all the top men of the other is in the place... so both bomb it!

[Last Roman]

And whats your insight? Whats your plan? Or is all you can do is attack McCain cause he's conservative?

Did he ever say that, at all? No...

I'm cynical enough not to believe that USA is the happy happy joy joy bringer of freedom it claims to be.

that our politicians claim to be.

[Denny Crane!]

How can you begin to negotiate and mediate with all chaos, killings, political moves etc going on? Yeah its the heart of the matter broken down to the simplest term but 'stop the ********' pretty much sums up what is required to move to that step of negotiation.

In every insurgency or conflict like this and I use the IRA as a case in point the resolution has come from diplomacy and mediation.

Time is also a big factor, the violence needs time to wind down. This of course requires the USA and Britain to refrain from invading anyone else and stirring up anti western hatred further.

Peter

[danzig]

In every insurgency or conflict like this and I use the IRA as a case in point the resolution has come from diplomacy and mediation.

Time is also a big factor, the violence needs time to wind down. This of course requires the USA and Britain to refrain from invading anyone else and stirring up anti western hatred further.

Peter

Evidently you didnt get my point, my point is yes diplomacy and mediation is required but it requires it to be done in good faith and as long as factions are trying to screw over each other in Iraq you cant expect them to agree on an agenda for Iraq. And antiwestern hatred isnt based soley on this 'invasion', it existed well before that though it hasnt helped any that is for sure.

[The Fish]

By all means, I think negotiation and mediation are the only way to resolve the conflict. I just think that more nuance is required than "Stop the ********." It makes for a great sound bite, but so did Bush's "Dead or alive" remark (in reference to Bin Laden, and we all know how well that turned out, don't we?). But I concede that this may very well have been taken out of context, and I'm sure McCain's plan doesn't literally entail him sitting down and cursing at the representatives of the two factions. So I say, talk away!

[Red Harvest]

The biggest stick we have at the moment is to threaten to pull out. Shiites and Sunnis have reason to fear the consequences of a U.S. pullout. As long as it appears we are staying, they can campaign by casting us as a bad guy while sniping at one another. If we leave? Then so does the investment and security that they presently have--it might not be great, but it is a lot better than the alternative.

Personally, I'm not willing to spend $1,000+ dollars per year of my taxes in the form of welfare/security for two sects that are bent on killing one another whether or not we are there. And suffering 5,000 casualties a year also seems an unreasonable price for us to pay too. Better to tell them to either learn to get along or we'll spend our money elsewhere while they kill each other. And there is not better way to get the point across than to start telling them you are pulling your main forces out of areas within a few months, so they had better be ready to take up the work in those areas.

[Denny Crane!]

What I have never understood is;

The insurgency is against the occupation

The occupation will continue as long as there is insurgency

If the people in Iraq want the west to leave all they need to do is stop blowing themselves up and fighting and we would leave as quick as humanly possible. So what they are doing is completely counterproductive, the logic baffles me.

Peter

[Red Harvest]

What I have never understood is;

The insurgency is against the occupation

The occupation will continue as long as there is insurgency

If the people in Iraq want the west to leave all they need to do is stop blowing themselves up and fighting and we would leave as quick as humanly possible. So what they are doing is completely counterproductive, the logic baffles me.

Peter

Yes, it is counterproductive. However, Dubya moves so glacially slow in such situations that while Americans as a whole want to get in and out, his actions don't show the same drive. He's like the house guest that decides to live with you permanently.

And you have to keep in mind the stages. The foreign insurgents moved it simply to attack Americans at first, they wanted the Americans to stay where they could fight them. It took time for a homegrown insurgency to take root. That it did at all is a result of inadequate security and poor planning. But now the sectarian warfare is there to stay until the various factions tire of it.

Most of the attacks are not against the U.S. but fellow Iraqis. That's why threatening them with a pull out and forcing them to take charge of their own defense has potential. It becomes an issue for the Iraqis to truly manage their own future. They can either step up to the task or suffer for it.

[Tiwaz]

What I have never understood is;

The insurgency is against the occupation

The occupation will continue as long as there is insurgency

If the people in Iraq want the west to leave all they need to do is stop blowing themselves up and fighting and we would leave as quick as humanly possible. So what they are doing is completely counterproductive, the logic baffles me.

Peter

Let me see... Do you say that in WW2 french were wrong to use armed resistance to try to get rid of germans?
If those groups stopped fighting (as if that would happen with all the hatred they share between them) they have very serious concern over what coalition would leave when they left. Already we know of the plans to build big military bases. Not to mention questionable position of goverment. Just as well you could say that end the occupation and insurgency will immediately end (and civil war will begin but that is another matter).

I understand iraqis completely, they want to kick occupiers out and everyone associated with them as well to clean the table. I might refer to retreat of germans which resulted in large amount of punitive actions against traitors and collaborators. Same is bound to take place in Iraq. If they played dead and rolled over they would shame themselves and accept US blessed goverment in their lead, another insult to their national pride. No way they would accept that. Even I would not accept such terms and I have quite a bit less interest in my pride.

By the way, as a response to comment that one thing shias and sunnis fear would be withdrawal of USA. Rubbish. That is what they want! They WANT to sort out this mess and once and for all estabilish who is the boss. That means they want USA out and start their civil war. Politicians who have their position and life depending on protection of USA are another matter but they are not important anyway. They are nothing but rubber stamps and as such they are treated.

[Red Harvest]

Let me see... Do you say that in WW2 french were wrong to use armed resistance to try to get rid of germans?

Completely false analogy. The Germans had no intent of leaving the French to rule themselves. Did you even read what he wrote???

By the way, as a response to comment that one thing shias and sunnis fear would be withdrawal of USA. Rubbish. That is what they want!

I very much doubt that, but I'm all for letting them kill themselves if that's what they want. No, they realize they have a lot to lose if the U.S. withdraws. It's not like the rest of the world is going to step in to help them. Right now they are biting the hand that feeds them.

The U.S. will be much better off in exiting. It would give us flexibility militarily and diplomatically, reduce the the strain on our finances, and force the Iraqis to resolve their problems one way or another. We removed the problem of Saddam, and gave them a boost toward establishing a govt. The rest of it is up to them.

[Octavius Valorius]

Oh yeah, just a thought, does anyone agree with my opinion on this topic?

[Tiwaz]

Completely false analogy. The Germans had no intent of leaving the French to rule themselves. Did you even read what he wrote???

I'm cynical enough not to believe that USA is the happy happy joy joy bringer of freedom it claims to be. Specially if we consider all the cases where USA in the past has brought "better" goverment into nations. Iraqis know this just as well. USA wants to leave US friendly, as puppet as virtually possible, goverment in place (to secure US interests) and screw the iraqis! And that is what iraqis know as well

I very much doubt that, but I'm all for letting them kill themselves if that's what they want. No, they realize they have a lot to lose if the U.S. withdraws. It's not like the rest of the world is going to step in to help them. Right now they are biting the hand that feeds them.

The U.S. will be much better off in exiting. It would give us flexibility militarily and diplomatically, reduce the the strain on our finances, and force the Iraqis to resolve their problems one way or another. We removed the problem of Saddam, and gave them a boost toward establishing a govt. The rest of it is up to them.

You doubt that? WAKE UP! Thouse groups have been at each others throats for centuries! Before Columbus even found America IIRC!!
Both sides want to dominate the other but would violently oppose attempts to be dominated. Result, definite civil war. Shias want to rule Iraq, sunnis want to rule Iraq. Both want all the oil they can. They do not have interest in sitting in a circle singing kumbaya.