Making infantry resist cavalry charges

[Surgeon]

Hi, back from a year or two of no M2TW and I'm pretty rusty at modding. Anyhow, I'm trying to make an infantry unit which can resist cavalry charges, but isn't a dedicated anti-cavalry unit like spearmen. Basically, the ideal effect would be that if they get charged by knights they won't get annihilated (like spearmen), but other than this don't get any buffs or penalties against different foes (unlike spearmen). Is there a way to do this by playing around with attributes and unit mass? I know that giving them a 'spear' attribute will make them resist charges when braced, but IIRC this also gives them a penalty against infantry.

[Ichon]

Hi, back from a year or two of no M2TW and I'm pretty rusty at modding. Anyhow, I'm trying to make an infantry unit which can resist cavalry charges, but isn't a dedicated anti-cavalry unit like spearmen. Basically, the ideal effect would be that if they get charged by knights they won't get annihilated (like spearmen), but other than this don't get any buffs or penalties against different foes (unlike spearmen). Is there a way to do this by playing around with attributes and unit mass? I know that giving them a 'spear' attribute will make them resist charges when braced, but IIRC this also gives them a penalty against infantry.

Spearmen aren't really dedicated anti-cavalry. Most mods give them a special spear attribute which gives them a bonus on offense against cavalry and a penalty against other infantry- however this doesn't help those spear units survive a charge any better than any other units though it might kill a couple extra cavalry on impact compared to another unit but any unit with high attack compared to that cavalries defense theoretically should have a similar affect though it rarely helps them survive the shock the charge any better.

I actually think a spear bonus is a bit stupid as spearmen began as anti infantry and in a shield wall that is always their best role. Longer spears become sarissas or pikes which are anti-cavalry and there you can see the mechanic very easily where the cavalry can't get past the spears into the unit whichever way the pikemen/phalanx is facing.

Formation like schitrom or spearwall make the biggest change absent anything else for infantry resisting cavalry charge but higher mass and defense skill seem to make infantry resist cavalry better. Best result would probably lower cavalry charge values, take way attributes like strong charge etc from all cavalry, increase most defense skill values (proportionately between all units so balance is somewhat kept though with higher defense skill, attacks probably could be raised a bit).

You can also cheat a bit and fool with radius or cohesion to make cavalry unable to hit an infantry formation very hard (many cavalry miss or run through the infantry similar to putting infantry in spread formation and running away from a cavalry charge reduces losses hugely in most cases).

[Taiji]

Hi Surgeon, extra mass and some mount_effect should do it

[Surgeon]

Cool, I'll play around with it then.

Reps all around

[RollingWave]

the simpliest way is to give them the light_spear (or spear) attribute in stat_pri_attr, it doesn't really HAVE to be a spear unit, you can give it to any infantry (or maybe even cavalry I havn't really tried that part though). the attribute makes them less effective against other infantry but if most infantry have it then it's kinda irrelevant, the other way would be to up their mass so that they're less likely to be send flying.

[confused german]

Extra mass is very efficient concerning defense of cav charges!!
BUT it makes the unit behave differently in other situations too:
Eample: While fighting they press enemy inf back alot, which makes them gate-smashers
but also they tend to get isolated in the battlelines (by spreading out or getting forward too much).

I played a lot around with mass for a HERo-submod to TA and can say: Quickly it tends to get "unrealistic" (which was no problem for me) so you should make some tests. Also watch out how the react to all form of projectiles.

You can furthermore give them a bonus against cav (cannot cite the line now, its where you have the "elephant -4"). This is also quite strong but more in handtohand fighting cav than in resisting charges. (Means it helps you kill them quicker rather withstanding their attack.)
EDIT: Thats the "mount_effect" Taji spoke of methinks.
It should be better than raising def-skill, because its cav-specific and moreover with high defskills units tend to show a lot of stupid "blowback" animations (if you like to watch).

If I was in the internet (with my pc) I'd show you some very effective cav-crashing unrealistic HERO-mod exaggerated "guards of orthanc", but so...

Maybe I can bringem.

[Valiant Champion]

are you wanting to mod a sword unit? halberd unit? axe unit?

most important thing is mass but I wouldn't go over 10.

(Than light_spear so that you at least have some bracing mechanism to hold up the charge without the penalty of spear attribute.

Than spear_bonus_12) on your primary weapon attribute line

Than mount effect horse, camel, elephant at least +4 on each.

These changes would make units like jannisary infantry, billmen, zweihanders or transylvania peasants survive a heavy cav charge.

[EP!anastasi]

Also, "frighten_mounted" attribute could be of use

[Taiji]

hehe, I use that to stop AI cav from suiciding the whole unit on pikes... The lengths I have to go to to make the AI sufficient!

[confused german]

That's a good idea, but how does it work, Taji? They do not at all charge pikes anymore?

Plus there's another thing wich increases effectiveness of melee vs cav charges: put the men closer together: a spear-formation of 1.1., 1.1, will stand it better than the average (whatsit?) 1.25, 1.25 or so. In general the fighting efficiency of melee troops is increased when put closer together at least in battleline-style confrontation and cav charges can be blocked. Combine with mass. I think that's how shield_wall works and its very effective against cav charges.

[EP!anastasi]

I think that's how shield_wall works and its very effective against cav charges.

If the unit the OP wants to create has shields, giving them the shield_wall formation is something maybe too obvious for someone to suggest?

The lengths I have to go to to make the AI sufficient!

I hope you haven't started doing sacrificial ceremonies

[Taiji]

I hope you haven't started doing sacrificial ceremonies

Honestly there is no ceremony while I sacrifice stuff

[confused german]

These guys for example...

type             Orthanc Guard
dictionary       Orthanc_Guard      ; Orthanc Guard
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_spear
banner holy      crusade
soldier          Armored_Sergeants, 43, 0, 3    ;3.5
officer             isengard_captain_early_flag   
mount_effect     horse +1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit, power_charge
move_speed_mod   0.8
formation        1.1, 1.1, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square, schiltrom 
stat_health      2, 3
stat_pri         11, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 100, 1
stat_pri_attr    light_spear, spear_bonus_8
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  9, 3, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        6
stat_ground      0, -1, 0, -2
stat_mental      15, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 15
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1000, 250, 85, 85, 1250, 1, 125
armour_ug_levels 3
armour_ug_models orthanc_guard
ownership        france
era 2            france
recruit_priority_offset    20

...defend these guys' charges extremly well:

type             rohan rider
dictionary       rohan_rider      ; rohan rider
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_cavalry
banner holy      crusade
soldier          Feudal_Knights, 43, 0, 2
officer             rohan_captain_early_flag
mount            heavy horse
mount_effect     elephant -4, camel -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, free_upkeep_unit
move_speed_mod   1
formation        1.2, 4.4, 3, 6, 5, square
stat_health      2, 4
stat_pri         8, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 100, 1
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         5, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 100, 1
stat_sec_attr    ap
stat_pri_armour  5, 1, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      -1, -1, -3, -2
stat_mental      12, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1000, 400, 100, 100, 1650, 1, 200
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
armour_ug_models rohan_rider, rohan_rider_upg
ownership        milan
era 0            milan
era 1            milan
era 2            milan
recruit_priority_offset    15

Dont wonder about hp, attack or def-skill values: Its an extrem fantasy Mod and it gets even better...

[Taiji]

They charge and die a bit, rout, rally, and then come back to die some more... Hardly ideal...

Yeah spacing helps resist charges if the balance is fine enough, and you can use radius too.

But using pikes limits what you can do with spacing, since making it impossible for inf to get past the pikes is a feature (bug) which is probably very hard to balance. And with them it might be advisable to create gaps that make them less anticav capable, so the the AI can at least kill some of them when it inevitably charges them with it's cav.

[Taiji]

I wonder about the 2 mass for cav (That's dealt with in descr_mount )

[confused german]

AH, yeah, thx, thats an artefakt. I should have showed you also descr_mount where I modified the horses and stuff BUT the cavs just here to have a point of reference. I think horse masses go around 4-9 or so will have a look if you insist..
EDIT: Does the riders mass for cav do really nothing at all?

[Taiji]

Yeah, mate. It does nothing at all.