Early Byzantine roster: poor? Why do people think they are OP?

[aleister]

Hi, I'm new to SS(I am playing ss 6.4)! In early period custom battle the Byzantines only have a few troops while hre, for example, has better and more diverse roster. Why do people think Byz is op in the early period, is it because they are rich, or is it because they have access to elite mercenaries, or what?

Thanks!

[Basileus Antiochus]

Firstly, they are rich, plus their early roster is actually very decent, they have a lot of good late professional units such as the Scutatoi and Stratiotae. Plus they start with 2 units of Scholarii, one of the most powerful cavalry in game(they can recruit more after 100 turns or so).

Therefore they usually go crazy early game and beat every one else, therefore some ppl may think they are OP

[TheRomanRuler]

As said above, but in late campaign they are very weak, strongest faction in late game (by units) is France.

[kraxmause]

They are especially strong in the early early game, when everybody has only wooden castles. The troops they get from wooden castles are stronger than any other faction's early units. For example Mounted Acritae own Mounted Sergeants, Mailed Knights and even bodyguards with their javelins.
Other factions start having a chance once they get castles, until then they are in deep trouble against the Romans.

[Homeros]

As said above, but in late campaign they are very weak, strongest faction in late game (by units) is France.

The Romans are not weak in the late era, they have a weak starting position.

The Romans have Scholarii - the most deadly heavy cavalry available. They have pyros who can one-shot every unit in the game, Varangian Guard are among the best heavy infantry out there, Scoutatoi infantry are superior to anything available to other factions during the 13th century. Excellent pikemen, solid infantry, good archers and a nice selection of cavalry (HA, javelins, light & heavy).

The Romans have one of the most interesting unit rosters in SS, and best of all, you don't have to play hundreds of turns to be able to recruit them (like France, for example). You can reclaim the settlements lost to crusaders within 20 turns or so. After that you can start designing plans to resurect the old Roman Empire in all its glory!

[Ferdiad]

Lancers are strongest Heavy Cav actually.

[Loger]

Lancers are strongest Heavy Cav actually.

That depends on how you define "best". 1v1 against other cavalry they aren't, though they have they have an insanely powerful charge due to their number.

[Homeros]

Lancers are strongest Heavy Cav actually.

Debatable.

Lancers will lose one on one; and, more importantly, Scholarii are available very early - anything that has the potential to rival them isn't available for centuries. That's a huge advantage, hence why I consider Scholarii the "best" heavy cavalry in the game.

[Ferdiad]

I value them for their charge, they can and will crush pikes head on.

[Loger]

True that. But in a long melee Scholarii or Gothic Knights will defeat them.

[Ferdiad]

Thats why you rotate in differnt units of Lancers. Repeated charging is the name of the game.

[MagicCuboid]

Yeah, I don't get the testing that goes on putting heavy cavalry against heavy cavalry. In the campaign, I always fight for chivalry so the odds are never in my favor. I'm sure not going to charge my most precious and valuable unit headlong into a slugfest with a similarly matched unit. I'm going to throw waves of ranged cavalry and infantry at them while the heavy cav waits for a good charge (or takes out the rest of the army) .

Edit: to address the op, in addition to their considerable wealth and naval dominance, the Romans use of professional javeliners really stand out for me. I love flexibility, and while the Romans certainly rely on their generals and scholarii a little much for their charging power (which is considerable) they have excellent multi purpose units in their Akritae for the early period which outclass almost any other contemporary army.

[Loger]

well, I still prefer my gothic knights. Sexy armor over 82 horses any day.

[AnthoniusII]

Compairing Gothic knights or Chivalric ones with Scholarii is the same if you could compare a tank of 1939 with one of 1949!
Scholarii are cavalry of an other era ,designed to counter cavalries of a diferend warfare.

[Ferdiad]

AP maces put them on Equal footing with 99% of Heavy Cav in the game.

[Judeman266]

Scholarii are only available from Constantinople while Lancers can be recruited from a Kings Stable. Lancers being more available and easier to retrain makes them a more useful unit, especially in the late era when the Byzantines have a hard time recovering Constantinople and Greece. In a one one fight if you charge and retreat repeatedly, Lancers can defeat any cavalry.

[Homeros]

Scholarii are only available from Constantinople while Lancers can be recruited from a Kings Stable. Lancers being more available and easier to retrain makes them a more useful unit, especially in the late era when the Byzantines have a hard time recovering Constantinople and Greece. In a one one fight if you charge and retreat repeatedly, Lancers can defeat any cavalry.

When you play with BGR4 / -5 you can only recruit "elite" units in one or two settlements.

You can have 200+ units of Scholarii before you can recruit Lancers or Gothic Knights (with enough money of course).

Scholarii can move around too; Lancers cannot repeatably charge them (unless the Scholarii commander is a moron and allows it) and they will die quickly in melee against Scholarii (and Gothic Knights) due to their AP bonus.

Whenever I play the late Romans, I capture Constantinople on turn 7-8 (that's when the rebels move their stack out of the city which you can take out easily, with very low casualties, in the field.

I personally don't like using Scholarii because they're quite OP (for most part of the game). The only danger are mass javelinmen, something the AI doesn't understand anyway. I think it's silly that one or two units can take out entire stacks, and they don't even have to charge the lot - moving through enemy lines is enough to squash them like bugs

[Ferdiad]

When you play with BGR4 / -5 you can only recruit "elite" units in one or two settlements.

You can have 200+ units of Scholarii before you can recruit Lancers or Gothic Knights (with enough money of course).

Scholarii can move around too; Lancers cannot repeatably charge them (unless the Scholarii commander is a moron and allows it) and they will die quickly in melee against Scholarii (and Gothic Knights) due to their AP bonus.

Whenever I play the late Romans, I capture Constantinople on turn 7-8 (that's when the rebels move their stack out of the city which you can take out easily, with very low casualties, in the field.

I personally don't like using Scholarii because they're quite OP (for most part of the game). The only danger are mass javelinmen, something the AI doesn't understand anyway. I think it's silly that one or two units can take out entire stacks, and they don't even have to charge the lot - moving through enemy lines is enough to squash them like bugs

A minority play with BGR so thats a moot point.

[Trolloc]

Saying you can only recruit lancers in 1-2 settlements because of bgr isn't much of an argument. Not everyone plays bgr, and if your gonna bring submods into it, I'm sure there's another submod floating around there with even better calvary than either of those.

[guyverlance]

okay