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Thread: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

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  1. #1
    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    After a report questioning the weaknesses of the Swedish Gripen fighter aircraft, selected to equip his army, Switzerland is willing to consider a new offer of Dassault Aviation. all reactions after the announcement of the contract indienBerne is on the defensive. A report highlighting the weaknesses of the fighter Swedish Saab Gripen, chosen to equip the Swiss Army to the detriment of the Rafale deDassault particular, the Swiss government had to explain on Tuesday, February 14 this choice. In a statement, the Federal Authorities of the Swiss Confederation indicates that the Gripen is the optimal solution for the Swiss army. "A working document and a summary of notes and costs of the candidates was the basis for the decision by the entire Federal Council. These core documents are the result of a detailed assessment of three types of aircraft (the Rafale of the French company Dassault, the Eurofighter consortium EADS European / Cassidian and the Swedish Gripen Saab) that was performed for several years, "the statement said. If the three planes were eligible to equip Swiss Army, are the financial aspects of the overall package that were decisive. "The acquisition does not only provide 22 aircraft and their equipment for the missions, but a comprehensive package including arming, package logistics, training systems for pilots, the integration of TTE in the command systems and other elements.*
    The estimated operating costs for 30 years also have acquisition costs. "It is in light of these requirements that the Swiss authority has chosen the Swedish aircraft, the paper says. According to the Minister of defense, Ueli Maurer, "Gripen is the best cost / performance." The Rafale recommended by the report of the Helvetic arméeLe Minister finds himself under pressure after the publication of a report co-signed by General Gygax and disclosed by the press Helvetic, and recommended instead that the Rafale. A spokesman for the Swiss Minister of Defense said Monday that Maurer did not, however, aware of this evaluation report confidentiel.Les believe in the Swiss Air Force The document, dated 2009 and written in English, that "the overall efficiency of MS21 Gripen remains insufficient to win air superiority in future threats, beyond 2015." In tests conducted in 2008, the Swedish aircraft was only 4.2 points out of 9 in the air policing missions, while a minimum of 6 was desired, the report said. The Rafale has meanwhile obtained 6.7 points and Eurofighter 6, 2 points.Selon this document, "the Rafale is the candidate who meets all the requirements of the Swiss Air Force and finished with the best score." The Eurofighter is itself the "best alternative to burst ", while the Gripen has been marked" unsatisfactory "for air-to-air attack, according to the report available.
    The Gripen was selected Nov. 30, 2011. Other manufacturers have meanwhile revised their proposals. Dassault has indicated that he proposed 18 Rafale now at the Swiss Air Force offered the same services as the 22 Gripen, and for a price of 2.7 billion Swiss francs (2.25 billion euros), against 3.1 billion Swiss francs for the Gripen. EADS has also revised its offer for the Eurofighter, according to press Helvetic. "We asked the French group to submit an offer really practical," said Ueli Maurer at a conference Tuesday, if he submits to a part of the tender. A spokesman for the Defense Ministry had said in late January that Switzerland had not received a new offer of the manufacturer français.Depuis few days, the Rafale is experiencing a comeback unexpected. After India, which said it had selected the Dassault combat aircraft, Brazil could do the same. The French defense minister, Gerard Longuet, yet had almost buried the plane, failing export. (With AFP and Reuters)
    http://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/...-dassault.html

    After a long list of failure to the exportation, it seems the wind has turned for the Rafale, the decision to India to choose the Rafale have relanced the Brazil and Swiss choice for their futur fighters.
    According to the Swiss army, Rafale is the best fighter in comparison to the Eurofighter and Gripen for the AA attack. The funny thing that Rafale is a polyvalent plane whereas Eurofighter and Gripen were made for the AA domination.

    the rapport of the Commander Swiss Air Force:
    http://www.scribd.com/Avtips/d/81390...and-the-Rafale
    Last edited by Darsh; February 15, 2012 at 12:47 PM.

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  2. #2
    Border Patrol's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    Why does Switzerland need aircraft? Shouldn't they be loading up on AA to stop the inevitable invasion by Merkozy?
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  3. #3
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    The best AA weapon is actually a fighter.
    Miss me yet?

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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    Shouldn't they be loading up on AA to stop the inevitable invasion by Merkozy?
    This would be the real thing makes them look like latkes.

    I think it is a question of money. Fighters with two turbines are more expensive in operation and service and they plan to use the plane for the next 30 years. Just a guess.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; February 14, 2012 at 08:16 PM.
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by IPA35 View Post
    The best AA weapon is actually a fighter.
    The best aa weapons is diplomacy.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    The best aa weapons is diplomacy.
    I tend to find networked sensor grids, an effective communications network and systemic redundancies coupled with advanced SAM missiles tends to be more reliable. Diplomacy requires a party willing to negotiate.

    That and having an effective way to counter those bastard SAS blokes who will, invariably, scurry around one's countryside murdering commanders and blowing up anything that looks vaguely valuable like a band of Herefordshire-accented weasels.


    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Meh.

    This has to be one of the few posts you've made that hasn't had me in stitches. It's quite notable.
    Last edited by Rolling Thunder; February 14, 2012 at 07:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  7. #7

    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    The best aa weapons is diplomacy.
    Diplomacy is useless if you do not have some serious muscle behind you.
    Ugly as the north end of a pig going south

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  8. #8
    Border Patrol's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    WOLVERIIIIIIIIINES!
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  9. #9

    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    The Gripen C / D section in particular from inadequate because of its poor performance and sustainability - all points that have the Gripen E / F should be improved. In particular, the new General Electric F414G turbofan engine (25% more thrust than the Gripen C / D) and the enlargement of the tank space by about 40% would favor a higher performance and greater endurance. But with the improvements was the Gripen E / F is also heavier than its predecessor, apparently (source: Othmar von Matt, " No new Swiss flew Gripen ", The Sunday, 11.2.2012). If the numbers of the various candidates (Saab Gripen, Dassault Rafale and € Fighter) compared to the paper, until now was the time to be assumed that the Swiss Air Force with the Gripen E / F is a relatively cheap, efficient, and for Swiss needs perfectly adequate fighter would receive. However, the Sunday newspaper published by the evaluation report contradicts November 2009. He notes that the Gripen E / F is in spite of its improvements in all areas of the bottom and not requirements. To what extent this could be assessed in November 2009 remains an open question, because these estimates are based on a purely technical evaluation - as mentioned earlier, flew the Gripen E / F was not. Now you can see how the decision was disastrous, with the conduct Gripen E / F no test flights and no practical evaluation: it is now no practical proof that he could meet the minimum requirements. The Air Force wrote in its report that should be performed in case of an election of the Gripen E / F, test flights in the air police.

    To the tiger part replacement to allow politically, it needs a broad front of supporters, because it needed money must not only within the VBS, but also in other departments can be saved (see " fighter jet purchase: Federal Government is strapped saving belt around "Swiss television, 01/02/2012). Even the sometimes harsh criticism over the decision of some type helps Tiger spare part favorable to the politicians do not necessarily matter. The publication of the inadequate assessment of the performance of the Gripen in the evaluation report raises a doubt about successful Parliamentary vote - let alone in a referendum. The Federal Council wants to save the tiger part replacement, it must conduct a new assessment. Still, it seems to not be too late, because according to an article in the NZZ Dassault submitted the Defence Committee 18 Rafale for 2.7 billion Swiss francs - but can not be said to offer (see: Lukas Mäder, " The Gripen could be significantly cheaper ", 20 minutes, 10/02/2012).
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  10. #10

    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    The French have been hawking the Rafale planes as far back as I can remember, I think they're the spiritual descendants of the Super Mirage.
    Last edited by Darth Red; February 15, 2012 at 12:44 PM. Reason: continuity
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  11. #11
    Border Patrol's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    Foolish Mon-Keigh. Your lack of navigational skills is truly showing. This is what makes your kind little more than cattle awaiting our harvest.
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  12. #12
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    Meh.

  13. #13
    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    Chosen by Maurer mainly for its ability to conduct air policing missions, the Gripen is not even capable. The Swedish fighter plane "was evaluated as unsatisfactory for this type of mission. The main weaknesses of the Gripen were endurance and performance "during flight tests in 2008. He gets a mediocre rating of 4.20 points while the Rafale landed a 6.71 points (6.2 points for the Eurofighter). The Swedish fighter is even surpassed by the performance of Swiss F-18. And drive the point home: "Gripen was the only candidate not achieving the minimum threshold (6 points, ie) the expected capabilities." For the report, the Rafale has instead "the efficiency and relevance to the fulfillment" of the mission of air police air.
    http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...en-suisse.html

    The Swiss report is show a bad advertising for the Gripen and even if Saab sell his planes for the Swiss army, It won't help for the futur deals.

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    Blau&Gruen's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    Quote Originally Posted by Darsh View Post
    http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...en-suisse.html

    The Swiss report is show a bad advertising for the Gripen and even if Saab sell his planes for the Swiss army, It won't help for the futur deals.
    The report was related to the C/D version in 2008 but the target is E/F of 2015. It's something I did not understand until recently, that the evaluation and the target model represent different generations of development. The dilemma seems to be for the kind of expensive industrial acquisitions that the customer is testing something that does basically not yet exist and has to calculate estimations about the progress of the development into the final decision making. A problem for Dassault was (I guess) before the deal with India that the company was not certain whether it would want to develop the product in the future. The situation has changed for Dassault after the successful contract. Dassault may have better chances on the market in general now because the production costs will decrease.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; February 15, 2012 at 04:23 AM.
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    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    can switzerland acually test flying them without violating the airspace of neighbouring countries?

  16. #16
    Blau&Gruen's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    No, idea. I guess when they fly through tunnels or into the vertical.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; February 15, 2012 at 04:30 AM.
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    Quote Originally Posted by Blau&Gruen View Post
    No, idea. I guess when they fly through tunnels or into the vertical.
    They use a similator from Activision and do as if they would fly. It's called TW-airforce and looks like real while it's total fake.



    That's a bit older but the same event, the shooting on Axalp.

    Last edited by DaniCatBurger; February 17, 2012 at 02:57 PM.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlerich View Post
    can switzerland acually test flying them without violating the airspace of neighbouring countries?
    They're in EFTA.

  19. #19
    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    right the gothard tunnel, i need to think outside the box!

  20. #20
    Blau&Gruen's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: after india swiss and brazil could also buy rafale

    .. too much fun (joke about airfix miniature planes) ...
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; February 15, 2012 at 05:29 AM.
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