Gah! heavy first rate/first rate spam

[Chewie]

Russia is spamming heavy first rates on me. Well, they're not sending out full stacks of them but 4 or 5 in a fleet is a bit much to deal with.

Last battle I had, they had 4 heavy first rates, 3 first rates, 1 2nd rate, 2 3rd rates, 2 4th rates, and a steamship and a few brigs. I had to send 2 1st rates (lead ship is HMS Victory with 10000+ hull points), 2 2nd rates, and 16 3rd rates. I had to stay at max gun range the whole time; anytime even 2 of those heavies are bracketing a single ship they cripple it and I have to pull it out of the line.

Anyway, think there should be a limit on heavy first rates? Or make AI spam more 3rd and 4th rates (they seem to be doing that until they build a steam drydock, then they spam bigger ships).

Or maybe Russians just like building big, I dunno.

[alhoon]

I wouldn't call it HFR spam, but I would like to see a few more 3rd rates in their navies.

[Sir_Aggelos_GR]

first rates are so easy to be beaten if they have no support from other ships.Just base on faster ships and dimast their big ones.Avoid being hit from a first rate just hit and run

[Tango12345]

Oh for crying out load. We make sure that the AI build proper warships instead of Indiamen and someone complains?!?!?! What is this world coming to?

You just need to make sure your fleets are powerful enough to deal with them-it may take a few changes to come up with a new tactic. The player can't automatically assume command of the sea any more.

[Chewie]

I haven't played vanilla for more than a year (or two?) and now I remember the trade ships lol and I definitely prefer HFR to trade ships.

[Tango12345]

Good . Long may that last.

[Vampiresbane]

Considering in history there were only really one or two Heavy 1st rates built and used (Santisima Trinidad was one that comes to mind), I wouldn't have any problem with putting a cap on how many the AI or the player can build. There's a cap of 4 or 6 with Admiral 1st rates already. Could go with something like this:

Ship -- Cap
Heavy 1st Rate -- 1
Admiral 1st Rate -- 4
1st Rate -- 5
2nd Rate -- 10
3rd Rate -- No caps

[Tango12345]

Actually they became very common after 1805 (so much so that first rates like Victory were downgraded to 2nd rates), and all the naval warfare in the game is based on the very late 18th and early 19th centuries. So it isn't nearly as far fetched as it sounds.

[Vampiresbane]

Works for me. Besides, I'm much happier to have to deal with too many heavy 1st rates than so many darn trade ships.

If you're having trouble with heavy 1st rate spam, counter with rocket ships and stay downwind. That's my advice.

[Chewie]

Works for me. Besides, I'm much happier to have to deal with too many heavy 1st rates than so many darn trade ships.

If you're having trouble with heavy 1st rate spam, counter with rocket ships and stay downwind. That's my advice.

Well they haven't sank any of my ships yet so I'm not having any real trouble but they kill more of my men than usual so that annoys me The first time around I got too close (like half of max range) and they lit me up pretty good.

Now I just stay downwind at max range line astern and beat back and forth until they die off one by one.

My house rules prevent me from building any rocket ships, steamships, or heavy first rates, and I limit 1st rates for my admirals only, so 1 of them per fleet.

[xUSAxNattador]

Was this on the commander edition? Havent came across that yet? What year is it that you start noticing HFR and so fourth, and is it set on VH or just H?

[Vampiresbane]

Was this on the commander edition? Havent came across that yet? What year is it that you start noticing HFR and so fourth, and is it set on VH or just H?

I've been playing DMUC. Early campaign the AI builds 6th, 5th, and 4th rates. It might start adding 2nd and 3rd rates, but I didn't let it when I played France. I forget the years for this exactly, but it was something like 1700 to 1720.

Late campaign as the US I saw the AI as the British build a combination of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th rates. Depending on their income, they either built a mostly 1st rate navy (3 or 4 heavies, 1 or 2 1st rates, and some 2nd rates) or if their income was in trouble ie me raiding it with a full fleet, they built a group with mostly 3rd and 4th rates and a few 2nd rates. The years for this centered around 1790 to 1810.

I played on N BAI/H CAI, otherwise known as N/H both times.

[xUSAxNattador]

Huh, ya starting to think I need to just get the commander edition, like the regular darth mod but sounds like all the commander extras are bad ass! I am owning the seas right now with the swedes and already to years 1737 and seen no fleet even close to havin HFR or even 2R or 3R ships in it.....was expecting more of a challenge on the trade noads.....I even let a few sit open and no one is takin them. Does the commander issue have more units for all factions or just the bigger factions? Any more unique ships in commander like the victory?

[Tango12345]

Huh, ya starting to think I need to just get the commander edition, like the regular darth mod but sounds like all the commander extras are bad ass! I am owning the seas right now with the swedes and already to years 1737 and seen no fleet even close to havin HFR or even 2R or 3R ships in it.....was expecting more of a challenge on the trade noads.....I even let a few sit open and no one is takin them. Does the commander issue have more units for all factions or just the bigger factions? Any more unique ships in commander like the victory?

There is no different in naval matters between DM and DMUC other than the ships paint jobs.

[alhoon]

Huh, ya starting to think I need to just get the commander edition, like the regular darth mod but sounds like all the commander extras are bad ass! I am owning the seas right now with the swedes and already to years 1737 and seen no fleet even close to havin HFR or even 2R or 3R ships in it.....was expecting more of a challenge on the trade noads.....I even let a few sit open and no one is takin them. Does the commander issue have more units for all factions or just the bigger factions? Any more unique ships in commander like the victory?

If you play with 2 turns/year, then you won't see first rates in 1740.

[bob01]

If you can get a Heavy to turn into the wind then having a 3'd rate with the wind is a snap. It's like punching the heavy bag. It just kind of wallows there and takes whatever you dish out.
Still, I have put a limit of 4 Heavy rates into the game which forces the AI to build 2ds and 3ds. I maintain a house rule of never using more than 2 Heavies in any fleet I send out.

I have had some fabulous naval battles.

[Vampiresbane]

If you can get a Heavy to turn into the wind then having a 3'd rate with the wind is a snap. It's like punching the heavy bag. It just kind of wallows there and takes whatever you dish out.
Still, I have put a limit of 4 Heavy rates into the game which forces the AI to build 2ds and 3ds. I maintain a house rule of never using more than 2 Heavies in any fleet I send out.

I have had some fabulous naval battles.

How did you limit the # of heavy rates the AI could build? I'd love to do this as well.

[bob01]

Use the DB Editor to go into Units_Tables\Darth_units and scroll over to the Unit Limits column. Then scroll down until you find the Heavy Rates you want to limit and enter the number.

Then save and exit.

However, I must tell you that I take an extra step. In order to respect the work done by Darth I don't make any changes to his files. Instead, I create a copy of the table with just the changes I want and put it into the script list at the top as "mymod." This way, Darth's files remain intact..... very useful if I screw something up and if he issues a patch I just have to reinstall "mymod" at the top of the script instead of editing all the files.

There is a tutorial around here somewhere which tells you how to do it. It is not as hard as it sounds.

[c.ryo]

DONT TOUCH 1ST RATES.

[Chewie]

okay now its getting bad. I checked out a Dutch fleet (my allies) and they had 8 HFR and 4 1st rates and 3 frigates (2 specialized ships). I think the AI gets to a point where they just stop building 3rd rates altogether. I took a peek at a Russian fleet whom I've been at peace for about 5 years and they had a similar fleet exept they also had 1 3rd rate. Just one! Well either I just drop my realism rules and join the HFR arms race or I change the unit limit (you can do that to an existing save game or do you have to start over?).