New 'Iraq massacre' tape emerges

[bigfootedfred]

The BBC has uncovered new video evidence
that US forces may have been responsible for the deliberate killing of 11 innocent Iraqi civilians.

The video appears to challenge the US military's account of events that took place in the town of Ishaqi in March.
The US said at the time four people died during a military operation,
but Iraqi police claimed that US troops had deliberately shot the 11 people.

A spokesman for US forces in Iraq told the BBC an inquiry was under way.
The new evidence comes in the wake of the alleged massacre in Haditha,
where US marines are suspected of massacring up to 24 Iraqi civilians in November 2005.

According to the Americans, the building collapsed under heavy fire killing four people - a suspect, two women and a child.
But a report filed by Iraqi police accused US troops of rounding up and deliberately shooting 11 people in the house, including five children and four women, before blowing up the building.
The video tape obtained by the BBC shows a number of dead adults and children at the site with what our world affairs editor John Simpson says were clearly gunshot wounds.

source

one wonders how many more storys like this there will be
With haditha, im not sure if these storys are true (this video does appear to be genuine) or not will matter,
Will the effect of these storys continue to erode support for the war?

[Stalins Ghost]

The song Vietnow comes to mind...
Really though, it's starting again. Soldiers are starting (well, I guess its a little more than starting by now) to get twitchy from guerilla attacks, the media is slating them for it, and well...we'll have to wait and see what happens next.

[danzig]

"The pictures came from a hardline Sunni group opposed to coalition forces." <--yellow alert if the tape existed why did they wait so long before coming forward and so conviently do so right during the Haditha mess.

"It has been cross-checked with other images taken at the time of events and is believed to be genuine, the BBC's Ian Pannell in Baghdad says. "

Yeah hope for BBC's sake its more credible then those British troops abusing prisoner photos

[ShangTang]

This is starting to get really bad. I mean, those soldiers can only handle so much war before everyone looks like an enemy. I hope a solution presents itself.

[bigfootedfred]

you watch the report here

Navigate to 'latest news in video and audio'

[orange slice]

This war is turning into another Vietnam...alot of simularties between them. (brutal innocent killings, thousands dead already, same believe that we will win this war just like we said we will win the war in Vietnam)

[Hub'ite]

This war is turning into another Vietnam...alot of simularties between them. (brutal innocent killings, thousands dead already, same believe that we will win this war just like we said we will win the war in Vietnam)

The only similarities in Iraq and Vietnam is that their both wars fought overseas.
Brutal innocent killings-Few isolated incidents.
Thousands dead already-A little over 2,400. Not anywhere near 54,000.
And we already "won" the war in Iraq. Now we're just stabilizing the country.
I'd wait until a credible source verifies this before passing any judgement.

[orange slice]

The only similarities in Iraq and Vietnam is that their both wars fought overseas.
Brutal innocent killings-Few isolated incidents.
Thousands dead already-A little over 2,400. Not anywhere near 54,000.
And we already "won" the war in Iraq. Now we're just stabilizing the country.
I'd wait until a credible source verifies this before passing any judgement.

That may be true, but they are fighting like the Vietmanese did. They are using this style of "Guerilla Warfare" where we don't know where they enemy is, and where getting blown up, or sniped by some far away position. And dont get me wrong were killing way more of them, then there killing us, just like in Vietnam we killed over a million troops, and lost 54,000.

[Virgil]

The only similarities in Iraq and Vietnam is that their both wars fought overseas.
Brutal innocent killings-Few isolated incidents.
Thousands dead already-A little over 2,400. Not anywhere near 54,000.
And we already "won" the war in Iraq. Now we're just stabilizing the country.
I'd wait until a credible source verifies this before passing any judgement.

I actually see a few more - now granted, these are extremely general - do not take them as serious historical challenges.

Vietnam - crush NVA totally in the beginning of the war
Iraq - Crush iraqi army in the beginning of the war

Vietnam - war drags on - more troops are commited, guerrilla attacks increase in supposedly (safe zones)
Iraq - same thing - war drags on insurgents appear and begin bombing in safe areas

Vietnam - Anti war protests increase - becoming more and more violent with clashes with police
Iraq - Anti war protests abundent - divides the nation and causes trouble (Patriot Riders vs. Whatever the hell baptist church)

Vietnam - Pres. johnson's popularity plummets - does the smart thing and gets out of there
Iraq - Pres. Bush's popularity is destroyed - for some reason we vote him back in.....

Vietnam - Regular citizens same as guerrillas - atrocities increase as troops get combat fatigued
Iraq - Regular citizens same as guerrillas - atrocites increase as troops get comabt fatigued

Vietnam - no real main army group - recon patrols are only way of finding enemy - combat can go either way
Iraq - no real enemy anymore - street and convoy patrols are the only way of location insurgents - combat decidedly one sided.

Those are most of the ones I can think of.

[Shadows]

This is starting to get really bad. I mean, those soldiers can only handle so much war before everyone looks like an enemy. I hope a solution presents itself.

I can't imagine how hard it is to spot the difference between an enemy and a friendly in Iraq. Especially when the two are for the most part the same. By day, an Iraqi could be a friendly market stall owner and by night he could run around with an AK and plant car bombs. The difference is also very hard to spot IMO, when even the friendlies could just suddenly blow up their car whenever they wanted, possibly killing some American soldiers. It has got to have the soldiers on edge, I know that I would be. So I'm a bit fed up with these abuse and killing stories, look at what these terrorists do to our captured soldiers. I don't see why we cannot responed in a way that grabs their attention.

[Garbarsardar]

I can't imagine how hard it is to spot the difference between an enemy and a friendly in Iraq. Especially when the two are for the most part the same. By day, an Iraqi could be a friendly market stall owner and by night he could run around with an AK and plant car bombs. The difference is also very hard to spot IMO, when even the friendlies could just suddenly blow up their car whenever they wanted, possibly killing some American soldiers. It has got to have the soldiers on edge, I know that I would be. So I'm a bit fed up with these abuse and killing stories, look at what these terrorists do to our captured soldiers. I don't see why we cannot responed in a way that grabs their attention.

I'm sure that when you execute someone at close range, like a baby, a child or a woman, you can spot the difference.

What is really the problem for me is that the whole of the US presence has been tainted by those acts. And the responsibility does not lie with few immature soldiers but with a chain of command that is too eager to cover up.


Not to mention that now troops have to undergo moral training:

A senior US commander in Iraq ordered all coalition forces to have fresh legal, moral and ethical training yesterday as Washington grappled with potentially its greatest military disgrace since the My Lai massacre of the Vietnam war.
Lt Gen Peter Chiarelli, the commander of US combat troops in Iraq, directed his officers to give all their troops a refresher course in "core warrior values training" over the next month.

"Of the nearly 150,000 Coalition Forces presently in Iraq, 99.9 per cent of them perform their jobs magnificently every day,'' he said in a statement.

"They do their duty with honour under difficult circumstances … and they do the right thing even when no one is watching. Unfortunately, there are a few individuals who sometimes choose the wrong path.''
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...02/ixnews.html

So if they are doing fine why the need "values training". And why as in Abu Ghraib it is always the grunt's fault and never the commander's?

[danzig]

I'm sure that when you execute someone at close range, like a baby, a child or a woman, you can spot the difference.

What is really the problem for me is that the whole of the US presence has been tainted by those acts. And the responsibility does not lie with few immature soldiers but with a chain of command that is too eager to cover up.

Lets be realistic though and no Im not defending the soldiers but would you really expect the chain of command not to try? Im sure you'll find 95% of US soldiers who absolutely deplore this action but know fully what its disclosure will mean...it will put even more pressure on them so I can understand why the military may have tried even if I dont agree. No matter what good the US military does actions like this will taint it, there will be people 10 years from now who bring up nothing but this act so its almost understandable why they would try. That said its absolutely vital that the US put these guys on trial, fairly of course and dish out suitable punishment. To some people that wont matter of course but it is important these guys are dealt with as an example.

So if they are doing fine why the need "values training". And why as in Abu Ghraib it is always the grunt's fault and never the commander's?

Same reason a company will require its workforce to attent sensitivity training despite the fact the problem might be only a handful of employees. I would imagine it would be rather easy for soldiers to sometimes forget who exactly the enemy is resulting in actions like this.

[internationalist]

I can't imagine how hard it is to spot the difference between an enemy and a friendly in Iraq. Especially when the two are for the most part the same. By day, an Iraqi could be a friendly market stall owner and by night he could run around with an AK and plant car bombs. The difference is also very hard to spot IMO, when even the friendlies could just suddenly blow up their car whenever they wanted, possibly killing some American soldiers. It has got to have the soldiers on edge, I know that I would be. So I'm a bit fed up with these abuse and killing stories, look at what these terrorists do to our captured soldiers. I don't see why we cannot responed in a way that grabs their attention.

The only attention killing civilians grabs is negative attention.

[King Sakkeus]

I can't imagine how hard it is to spot the difference between an enemy and a friendly in Iraq. Especially when the two are for the most part the same. By day, an Iraqi could be a friendly market stall owner and by night he could run around with an AK and plant car bombs. The difference is also very hard to spot IMO, when even the friendlies could just suddenly blow up their car whenever they wanted, possibly killing some American soldiers. It has got to have the soldiers on edge, I know that I would be. So I'm a bit fed up with these abuse and killing stories, look at what these terrorists do to our captured soldiers. I don't see why we cannot responed in a way that grabs their attention.

Im sure the soldiers cant tell the difference between an AK wielding insurgent and a child from few meters away. I guess you also dont realize that the terrorists sure give a **** when soldiers kill innocent civilians? They do it themselfs all the time so why would they really care? Thats right they dont but Im sure the USA really "got them this time", I bet they are ****** off right now.

Also how many american soldiers have been captured by the insurgents? I think the number is 0 so that kinda shoots your argument down. Im not sure about the number though so if Im wrong then ignore the last part of my post.

[grimreaper299]

if you were all out in iraq youd be *****ing urself out there. i mean if youd turned around to see your friend shot in the head by a "freedom fighter" wouldnt you try to fire back?
i mean you wouldn't just sit there and accept that he shot him and now hes coming for you would you?
and anyway the americans dont really like geurilla warfare or you would have won in korea (did you win in korea?(im only 14 dont know) whether they actually did kill them is indifferent to the war anyway so you see the terrorists caring? what can we do to stop them from doing and if so what then?
i dont agree that they should have shot them but i dont know and i dont think we will ever know. That bush

hope that none takes offence or nothin

Merged double post-Valus

[HMMcKamikaze]

Im sure the soldiers cant tell the difference between an AK wielding insurgent and a child from few meters away. I guess you also dont realize that the terrorists sure give a **** when soldiers kill innocent civilians? They do it themselfs all the time so why would they really care? Thats right they dont but Im sure the USA really "got them this time", I bet they are ****** off right now.

Also how many american soldiers have been captured by the insurgents? I think the number is 0 so that kinda shoots your argument down. Im not sure about the number though so if Im wrong then ignore the last part of my post.

So we should do something because terrorists do? Thats just sickening. Lowering yourself to the level of the enemy is wrong, and killing innocent people is wrong.

We shouldnt have gone to Iraq in the first place, and we are paying for it as there is no way to contain the freedom fighters.

Bush has already said that withdrawal from Iraq will be his predecessors job, so he knows we arent leaving soon. This just leaves more time for the terrorists to unite, and more time for lives to be lost.

[NorCal Guy]

The video was from a hardline sunni group. I will not beleive it until it gets support from military officials. Most likely it will become another big story about why iraq is wrong here in america. This whole thing in Haditha and now this makes me sick. The media is so willing to discredit the proffesional military to make Bush look back. Its childish.

[akanoez]

i think you'd be wrong to compare this to vietnam based on the numbers of dead, dude. it is quite like vietnam in that "terrorism/communism" is the motive for removing one government and installing a new, business friendly puppet in its place, and at the same time making loads of money for your friends who supply the bombs, tanks and own the construction firms to rebuild all the stuff that you destroyed with those tanks and bombs.

[Carach]

most of the sources going against american troops is highly unreliable...

[bigfootedfred]

Troops cleared of any wrongdoing

A US military investigation has found there was no misconduct
by US troops over Iraqi civilian deaths in the town of Ishaqi, defence officials say.
This follows allegations that 11 people were deliberately shot by troops during a raid on a house in March.
The events in Ishaqi, north of Baghdad, are among a number of alleged atrocities by US troops in Iraq.
In the wake of the alleged massacre in Haditha, US troops are starting extra training in moral and ethical values.
Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki has criticised coalition forces for what he described as habitual attacks against civilians.

something is very very rotten here.

According to the Americans, the building collapsed under heavy fire killing four people - a suspect, two women and a child.

But a report filed by Iraqi police accused US troops of rounding up and deliberately shooting 11 people in the house, including five children and four women, before blowing up the building.
The video tape obtained by the BBC shows a number of dead adults and children at the site with what our world affairs editor John Simpson says were clearly gunshot wounds.

The pictures came from a hardline Sunni group opposed to coalition forces,
which has in the past been accused of having links with al-Qaeda.

Our correspondent says the BBC was not given the footage but had to dig it out, adding that the group was not interested in Western news organisations and may have intended the pictures to go to al-Qaeda sympathisers abroad.

It has been cross-checked with other images taken at the time of events and is believed to be genuine. The US does not appear to be questioning its authenticity, our correspondent says.

and a whole new one for today.

US military faces new allegations

The US Pentagon has been given details of fresh allegations made to the BBC about the conduct of US troops in Iraq.
The so far unsubstantiated allegations, were made by US deserter Chris Mogaoay,
who fled to Canada as he was training for deployment to Iraq.
He said he and comrades were told that if they shot a civilian
they should throw an assault rifle down by the body and claim the victim was an insurgent.
The Pentagon has not yet responded to the allegations.
Mr Mogaoay said he and his comrades were told the rest of the platoon would back the story.

His sergeant showed them pictures, he said, of "what war was really like".
"The first picture he showed me was him lighting a cigarette off of a burning Iraqi's body," he said.

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