Cossack Muskets -- & Muskets in General

**PrestigeX** · February 11, 2012, 12:55 AM

Hey all, hoping to get a little advice here on the use of Cossack Musketeers.

I'm playing Teutonic Campaign as Novgorod , and having a heck of a time -- in any case, I have now got access in a few places to COSSACK MUSKETEERS...

now, I've read many times on these forums people praising the Cossacks and Janissaries as being the very best 'gunners' -- its just... I can't see it...

Each battle I use the Cossacks, they always take more casualties than they dish out -- their best use seems to be when I AUTO-resolve.

IDK, I always seem to have an easier time when I used the 'hand-gunner' style troops because of their higher armor, they're more stalwart defensibly...these cossacks take huge casualties (against various foes).

what kind of formation should I use with them? stretched as thin as possible ? ... should 'fire at will' be enabled or not? .. do they excell on flat ground more than on top of a hill ? see, they cost 900 florins and it just seems stupid -- I could get 2 units of Kazaks instead (who have proven to be invaluable so far)

idk, so far it just seems like my best foot missile has to be .. the trusty "Crossbow militia" - once in light mail. (dvor on foot good too, but expensive lacking the punch I need vs. all the plate knights of the europeans)

**Sursion** · February 11, 2012, 01:07 AM

Firearm units in general are a 50-50 shot. They have auto-FF, which means they will never friendly fire your own units. However, this means some times they will refuse to fire at the enemy.

However, other times, my firearm units dominate the field, killing the most amount of people. I find this most often when I set them to skirmish mode and just let them handle their business on their own. If they stray too far, just bring them back in.

Edit: In regards to formation, you can line them up infront of your line so they can maximize their firing. However, you're relying on Skirmish and sometimes they will be stupid and just stand there while cavalry slaughter them. I find it's best to put them on the top of a hill, or simply off to the side of the formation.

Another edit: If you have a row of two, the first row will fire, then kneel down while reloading and let the back row fire over them. If you have any more rows then that, the front line will move to the back after shooting. This is slower than the former method.

**PrestigeX** · February 11, 2012, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by Sursion

Firearm units in general are a 50-50 shot. They have auto-FF, which means they will never friendly fire your own units. However, this means some times they will refuse to fire at the enemy.

However, other times, my firearm units dominate the field, killing the most amount of people. I find this most often when I set them to skirmish mode and just let them handle their business on their own. If they stray too far, just bring them back in.

interesting,, I 'll give the skirmish mode a try then -- It has become second nature for me to switch 'skirmish' off, whenever I have any unit capable of this mode -- but since you're saying, they have "F.F" programming maybe this would somehow help "leaving the yellow on".

the enemy always seems to rush me no matter if I'm defending or attacking when I have muskets - vs. Europeans heavy cav charges (and russia has lame anti-cav infantry) and by now it's .. Polish Knights and Ritterbruters or Norse War Clerics ...or they have tons of crossbows/archers/artillery and they win the fire fight - my cossacks being 'leather armor' the arrows annihilate them

**Sursion** · February 11, 2012, 01:22 AM

Gunpowder have the distinction of being very scary. If the cavalry are close enough, and at least one of them die, they will route from the gunfire. However, if you don't want to trust that method, follow this plan:

Cavalry: Crossbowmen
Heavy Infantry: Musketeers

Crossbowmen infront of your infantry line will absolutely wreck cavalry. They'll only get about one volley off, but it is devastating. Because they don't have to lob the bolts over heads, it's more powerful, and will cut cavalry down (it's happened to me many times.)

**Blaze of Macedon** · February 11, 2012, 04:42 AM

Cossacks rock! Haven't given them a try in Kingdoms but in Vanilla M2 i have relied upon the extensively!

So the basic idea is: skirmish on, two lines deep, loose formation (yes it's a biiiiiiiiig front line), add some dismounted dvor behind (skirmish off, tight formation - so let them hold their grond) and some melee axemen and cav and very few enemies will come even close to your line.

The strength of most gunpowder units comes from mass volleys of fire so maybe you're just uing to few units? Normaly i use 4 cossacks and 4 dismounted dvor per stack. Devastating!

**13lackGu4rd** · February 11, 2012, 05:17 AM

In general gunpowder units excel at flat ground, however, like any other missile unit, being on top of a hill is always beneficial, so both scenarios work. Cossack Musketeers have a very long range, which gets even longer if stationed on top of a hill, but even with it they won't get too many volleys off due to their slow rate of fire, however it's noticeably better than the lesser gunpowder troops, usually allowing for 2 volleys against cavalry rather than 1. With that in mind, you have 2 options on how to use them effectively. The first is to treat them like a fire and forget type unit, like missiles if you want, rather than as a constant fire troop like regular archers. In this case you want to maximize the damage on impact, focusing on having enough numbers to finish the battle before it begins so to speak. The second way is what was suggested above, skirmish formation and let them slowly but surely grind down enemy heavy infantry while keeping a safe distance. Personally I prefer the first method, which can also work with the well known Pike and Shot formation if you have good enough pikemen units(I wouldn't use pike militias for it), but I can certainly see the 2nd method working against heavy infantry based armies without enough cavalry.

**Silverheart** · February 11, 2012, 07:59 AM

I suggest using two to three units of Cossack Musketeers in a long line, preferably atop a small hill, while you simultaneously use cavalry to harass the enemy on the flanks.

Musketeers in general are very capable (high attack, fairly fast reload time, damages morale), but you must protect them from a variety of threats before you will start to see any good results from them. These threats include especially mounted and ranged enemies.
You see, what Musketeers need is an enemy that´s slowly advancing towards them straight from the front, making them best suited for countering enemy infantry - their poor armour makes them vulnerable to cavalry, and skirmishes create disruption in the line and causes their efficiency to dwindle dramatically.
But with proper support, they can make an invaluable contribution to the progress of the battle.

I use cavalry to attack the enemy as soon as the battle starts, and try to take out the enemy archers, elites and cavalry - or at least keep the enemy busy while the Musketeers stand back and fire at whatever gets in range. I also keep charger infantry (for example Berdiche Axemen and other two-handers) and spearmen (regular Spear Militia is good enough, since they´re just there to hold the line and provide numbers) right behind the Musketeers in case any enemy gets too close. Keeping the enemy occupied thusly gives them less options for attacking your Musketeers, and gives the gunners more opportunity to fire at absolutely everything that gets in range.
Or you can always just use a single unit of Musketeers with Dismounted Dvor on their sides, and just not rely on gunners so much - if you´re better off with missile cavalry, then you can just stick with that, too.

**PrestigeX** · February 13, 2012, 12:08 AM

some very useful tips here, Thanks guys =).

I haven't got any of the DVOR troops yet (on foot or on horse), but they'll be available shortly... Uparmored Druzhina are my best troops 'elite' troops at the moment...Normally the boyar sons are really good, but I've found them to be lacklustre in Teutonic Campaign (take too many casualties, idk but the jav cav seemed way more potent in Grand Campaign).

I'll try using about 3 units of cossacks in my armies, and use some of the other 'late' era troops to support. Because I'd been using more like 5 - 6 Cossack Muskets with.. spearmen/spear milita , Cav Militia, Kazaks, Druzhina and foot druzh/foot boyar - and my armies tend to win but wih such heavy losses each time...

And I should point out, the reason I've been using the cossacks / trying to -- is because I keep receiving them by completing Council Missions, 4 or 5 muskets received in one go - sent off to fight the Foe =)

**Denkron** · May 06, 2012, 07:23 PM

From my experience musketeers (especially Cossacks) are great to defend walls but they're pretty glitchy in the field. They have no consistency with their firing, usually only sending out one or two volleys and then just standing idly. I even tried a custom battle with an entire line of them and just a few enemies right in front of them and most of them just stood there after the first few shots. I think the unit AI is just not able to coordinate them properly like archers which are pretty simple. Then again it might just be me.

**HMS England** · May 06, 2012, 10:23 PM

I'm not sure about the problem, as I don't mess with Cossacks too much, but let me just set straight that a lot of people on this web site are unprofessional in almost every way. They'll argue with you 'till the end of the world about something purely based off of personal biases. There's no arguing that the Cossacks and Janissaries were great fighters, but to say with no evidence that they were better than European gunners, the ones who came up with the gun (an example being musketeers) is simply not true.

Then again, the game is very un-true in many aspects, probably due to balance, but they may be the best in game, I don't know. In my personal experiences, like you, I haven't found them to be; there always seems to be some catch like "you weren't using them right", or "they're no good in the field" when had the situation been the other way around, they would've said "they're no good on the walls". Like I said, just a bunch of personal biases.

Though, looking at your situation, I would recommend you instead get a bunch of cheaper crossbow militia and just spam the enemy to death with missiles. You often pay twice the price for only 50% better quality troops. That's just the way it works, so why not do it the most efficient, cheaper way? Another thing is gunners are made strictly for armour piercing, do not put them up against peasants and expect the same results you'd get from a simple unit of crossbow militia. Save the gunners for those pesky Teutonic Knights. That's the principle of overkill in it's most literal form.

**Ferdiad** · May 07, 2012, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Denkron

From my experience musketeers (especially Cossacks) are great to defend walls but they're pretty glitchy in the field. They have no consistency with their firing, usually only sending out one or two volleys and then just standing idly. I even tried a custom battle with an entire line of them and just a few enemies right in front of them and most of them just stood there after the first few shots. I think the unit AI is just not able to coordinate them properly like archers which are pretty simple. Then again it might just be me.

It could be the Fire By Rank effect they have.

**Old Geezer** · May 07, 2012, 11:18 AM

I thought than gunners could not fire down from walls. Was this not true in vanilla and it was not something that could be changed was it? Will they really not friendly fire? I have had cannons and Greek fire throwers (KGCM) hit generals who run in front of them, but I think that the Greek fire throwers will not fire if friendly units are in the way. The only situation that I can see gunners being effective is attacking across a bridge with a passive defender that allows them to blast until out of ammo and then switch with another gunner unit. Pathetic compared to crossbows. Also the game gives them a silly amount of ammo. If the archers and gunners would not drop weapons (the whole unit) when just a couple of them are in melee then they would be decent and interesting units. The only battle I had with musketeers that was interesting was an Americas campaign where I as the evil Spanish attacked the evil French and shot their shorts off as they stood on a hill. The wicked native Americans however just run at them and smack the snot out of them just as they do to cowardly drunken pikemen. The handgunners seem to be somewhat more useful because of armour and a decent hand weapon. This game would be so very excellent if the code to correct some of these minor things would be released.