[WIP] Chansons de Geste: Carolingian Total War (Scandinavia Map Preview Out! 6/20/12)

[bizarcasm]

Hello everybody. I’ve had this mod idea stewing around in my head for a while now, and I think I’ve finally got the concept down to something to start with. So, without further introduction, here is my project:

Chansons de Geste


Introduction:

It is the year of our lord, 768, and the world is changing. It has been a little less than three centuries since the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Since then, a dark age has settled across Europe as education and culture have given way to an era of total war. The Franks, Goths, Lombards, and other "barbarian" peoples have struggled for centuries, trying to form their own empires out of the rubble, but so far none have been successful. Now, new threats loom on the horizon. In the South, the Moors are once again on the rise, and even now menace southern Italy and what little remains of Christian Spain. In the east, steppe nomads known as the Avars and numerous pagan Slavic tribes frequently raid the borders of their more "civilized" neighbors. Finally in the North, the harsh, cold land and constant conflicts have bred a people who seem to live for nothing but battle. Now, as they unite into larger kingdoms, they are beginning to covet their southern neighbors relative wealth and prosperity. In the face of these threats, it will take a truly strong and wise king to unite the peoples of Europe and restore civilization to the West.

Description:

A dark age mod focussing primarily on the “Matter of France”. IE, the rise of Charlemagne and the Carolingian Dynasty, and the wars fought by his heirs. A lesser focus, there are also the attempts to unite the kingdoms of the British Isles. At the same time, Western Europe faces threat of invasion from all sides. The Moors in the south, the Vikings in the north, and the Avars and Magyars in the East.

Timeframe and Scale:

During the mod’s timeframe, much of Western Europe was politically in flux. The Franks in particular, as it was their custom to divide lands and property equally between their heirs. Because of this, Chansons de Geste will focus on a series of three 75 year campaigns, rather than one long Grand Campaign. As a result, the turns per year ratio will be rather high, at 8 turns per year, or 600 turns per campaign. The first campaign will start in 768 AD, with the death of Pepin the Short and the rise of Charlemagne. The second starts in 843, following the Treaty of Verdun, and the division of his Empire between his grandchildren. The third and final campaign will start in 918, with the fall of the eastern Carolingians and the rise of the Ottonian dynasty. The end date will be 993, with the death of Charles, Duke of Lorraine, the last Carolingian to claim the throne of West Frankia. As the campaigns are released, I intend to retrofit their features into the previous ones, so that eventually all three will be playable until 993.

Factions, Cultures, and Religions:
(Faction nomenclature has not been decided, as such, names are tentative.)

768 Campaign Factions Map:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

768 Campaign Factions List:

Franks (Charlemagne)
Franks (Carloman)
Bavaria
Lombards
Benevento
Papal States
Romans
Saxons
Danes
Norsemen
Swedes
Wessex
Mercia
Northumbria
Britons
Picts
Ui Neill
Munster
Vascones
Asturias
Al-Andalus
Maghreb
Tahert
Ifriqiya
Croats
Avars
Moravia
Polans
Veleti
Magyars (emergent)
rebels

Cultures:

Germanic
Romance
Slavic
Celtic
Steppe
Arabic
Greek

Religions:

Christianity
Sunni Islam
Ibadi Islam
Shia Islam
Germanic Paganism
Slavic Paganism
Steppe Paganism
Judaism
Heresy

Maps Progress:

Most of the work I'm doing at the moment is on getting the map up and running. The heights and regions maps are now mostly completed, and have been successfully implemented into the mod. Next I’ll move on to the ground types, climates, and features maps

Heights Map:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Regions Map:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Concepts for Mod Features:

These are some ideas I’ve had about potential campaign features. At his stage the are very tentative and subjective to change.

• The Church: The guilds system will be used instead of normal buildings to represent the church. If you wish to build more auspicious Cathedrals, or recruit/promote higher ranking clergy, you will have to prove yourself worthy to the Church and the Pope. This will be particularly important for smaller Christian factions, or converted Pagan ones, as having higher-ranking clergy on your side will be necessary in order maintain and expand your authority.

•The Pope: Crusades, inquisitions, and faction excommunications are all outside the range of this mod’s time-frame. In addition, during this period, no Pope came from outside the Papal States, and only the Roman clergy could elect a new Pope. As a result, many of the Papal State’s special abilities are no longer relevant. If I can get it to work, my hope is to disable inquisitions and crusades, then either figure out a way to only allow Papal State priests to become Cardinals, or use use the free religion slot to give the Pope his own sub-religion.

• Feudal Government Systems: There will be several tiers of feudal government buildings (such as Count, Margraviate, Duchy, etc…) which will affect things like unit recruitment, building construction, and character traits and titles.

• Viking Raids: Similar to Jihads, or the “Warpath” ability in the Americas Campaign, Germanic Pagan factions will have the option to call Viking Raids on wealthy Christian settlements, in order to represent the Viking invasions.

Previews:

First Map Preview (Britain):
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...4#post11301494

Second Map Preview (Ireland):
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...2#post11558382

Conclusion:

I’ve got no problem with collaborating if anyone’s really interested in helping, but I think I can do most aspects of modding myself if necessary. I’m think I’m strongest at mapping, text editing, and some simple scripting. I have less experience with 2D art, and skinning. Modeling is probably the biggest weakness, as I have neither the experience, nor the software, so new units or strat models are probably out of the question for the time being.

As I have said, all information and features are subject to change. Any input or feedback is appreciated. Thank you.

[Ixor_Drakar]

Love the idea, here is a map to help you along.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[bizarcasm]

Cool, maps are always handy. I’m building a fairly large collection of them.

By the way, if anyone has any maps showing the division of the Frankish Empire between Charlemagne and his brother, Carloman, they would be useful for starting positions. I have one, but I think it may have their holdings reversed, so I’m not sure how much I trust it.

Also, any maps detailing physical features, forests, swamps, etc. would be very helpful. Particularly if it showed these things as they were a thousand years ago. I have the British Isles fairly well covered, but the mainland is a little more sketchy.

[Odoaker]

I will wish you all the best for it. Good luck!

(The map is generated from the map editor of railroad tycoon?) Nice.

[IVIarkI2I]

Iwould suggest adding great moravia not "czechs" or moravian principality and nitra principality both became great moravia when united

[bizarcasm]

The faction names are mostly place holders at the moment as I still haven't firmly decided which naming conventions I'd like to use. I’m leaning toward using the most generic faction names possible, sort of like Dominion of the Sword, to represent re-emerging factions and faction transitions. So, for instance, the "Goths" could represent either the March of Gothia, or Catalonia, depending on which territories it has. The "Vascons" could represent either the Duchy of Gascony, or the Kingdom of Pamplona. I was thinking of doing something similar with the Great Moravia and the Duchy of Bohemia, and that was the idea behind the “Czechs”, but I’m not sure if that ethnonym can validly be used for both.

[Jaldithas]

no,surely it won't, Great Moravia and Duchy of Bohemias are totally different states

[bizarcasm]

I’m not claiming that they were the same states (although there is a fair amount of territorial overlap), nor would I have the faction represent both at the same time. At the start of the game, the “Czechs” faction would start out as representing just the Principality of Moravia, and, if it expanded, it could become Great Moravia. But if it were destroyed, the same faction could re-emerge, possibly representing the Duchy of Bohemia instead. The idea is to allow one faction, if destroyed, to represent other emerging, culturally similar states.

What I’m getting at is: Were the Moravians and Bohemians similar enough that the same faction could represent either, depending on which territories it had? If they could be given separate factions, how much would they vary from each other, other than the name of the state and who was in charge? Could both Moravian and Bohemian people be called Czechs, or some other generic term?

That said, I'd rather have them as separate factions myself, but then I'd have to find another faction to sacrifice.

[Polycarpe]

I have a question regarding the map, where did you got the map template?

[bizarcasm]

I had to make it myself, which was fairly complicated. I'm using mostly data from the DEMIS World Map Server, which I found through Gigantus' tutorials. But the problem is, those maps are using an awkward equirectangular projection. So I used the tool I found here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=465009, to adjust the map's projection. The problem is that doing this obscures the coastlines slightly, and they need to be edited by hand. The coasts of Norway and Scotland for instance, became a total nightmare, as all those tiny islands merged with the land. I'm currently working on a version of the heights map based on the NASA data I found at that same page, as they're more detailed than the DEMIS ones, but it's slow going.

[IVIarkI2I]

well main diffrence was, in cocentration of power and army...

in case of Great Moravia, it was autonomous state mostly ruled by Slavs, consisted of two duchies Moravia and Nitra, and thats where the power was concetrated aswell

in case of Duchy of Bohemia, power was concentrated in Prague, or mainly Czech part... thought they become vassal to HRE

[bizarcasm]

One other problem in dealing with Moravia is that Nitrava and Pannonia fall off of the map, which will make the development of Great Moravia difficult to represent. I could shift the map slightly further east, but then I would need to do something about the Avars.

[IVIarkI2I]

well Nitra aint that from moravia, but hopefully if you move map further east youve got enought slots to include Avars

[blur!]

I like this idea, i can help you with 2d art tho and a bit of skinning if you want

[bizarcasm]

I've updated the intro post with a few changes. First off, I've shifted the map eastward, so that it includes all of Pannonia. This will allow the Great Moravia and Charlemagne to expand to their maximum borders. It also means that some changes had to made to the faction list. The Avars and Moravians have been added, at the expense of the Dal Riada and the Cumbrians.

@blur1811: Unfortunately, until the factions get more firmly decided, there won't be much for an artist to do. Even then, the unit rosters and faction symbols will still need to be researched a little before anything can be made.

[Ixor_Drakar]

With the map now further east the Romans could also be a possible addition.

[bizarcasm]

Besides Venice and a few other cities, the Romans are still just barely off the edge of map. At this point, is I had an extra faction slot, it would probably go to either the Swedes/Geats, the Croatians, or to a second Lombard faction for Southern Italy.

[Heathen Storm]

Great! I've been hoping for a mod like this for a really, really long time.
A few suggestions on the faction list:

Axe the middle franks, Bretons, Aquitanians, and Bavarians. I'm not sure why the Aquitanians and Bavarians are included as separate factions... During the start of the mod they were included in the Empire. The Saxon tribes (on the mainland) would be great to have in, as Charlemagne fought a very long war against them to Christianize them and bring them into his empire. It's good that you have the Veleti in, that should stop the Germans and Moravians from expanding too easily.

My mod begins a few years before yours ends, so any units that I make you are free to use. (So far I have a complete roster for the Slavs in the Wrath of the Norsemen mod). Also I would recommend using Absinthia's Norse units from WOTN, he will be releasing them soon at some point and I can tell you from experience they are absolutely beautiful.

[IVIarkI2I]

nice, Iwill be eagerly watching your progress,thought Iwill consider helping out with moravians

[bizarcasm]

@Heathen Storm: Thanks for the suggestions, especially about the units. With regards to the factions, this is my reasoning behind them:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Bavaria had been independent since their duke, Tassilio III, had betrayed Charlemagne’s father, Pepin, in his war against Aquitaine five years before the starting date. He was one of Charlemagne’s main early adversaries, allying himself with Desiderius, the king of the Lombards, and was a thorn in Charlemagne’s side for 20 years before finally being defeated.

Aquitaine had surrendered to the Franks one year before the start date (in the war previously mentioned), but after Peppin died, they revolted again under Hunold II, and thus are independent as of the starting date.

The Bretons, while weak and divided at in 768, would briefly become a rather powerful faction, taking advantage of the Frankish civil wars to assert their own power and influence, briefly being recognized by the Frankish emperor as an independent kingdom.

Middle Frankia and Burgundy on the other hand are there mainly to act as shadow factions to spice things up in the mid-to-late period, as otherwise the I’m worried that the Franks would dominate everything. While it’s true they don’t exist as of the start date, after Charlemagne’s death, they both became rather important kingdoms, and it seems a shame not to represent them somehow.

Oh, and the “Saxons” faction actually refers to the mainland ones.

–––

@ IVIarkI2I: Thanks a lot. The eastern European factions will probably be the most difficult for me as I am less familiar with them, and there is just less information available. So any assistance with them is definately appreciated.

–––

This discussion has got me rethinking about the basic plan and structure of the mod. There are two main concepts I have in my head of for how to go about it:

The first is a large, dynamic campaign, designed to represent the entire period. Because of this, the factions are somewhat generic, and can re-emerge when destroyed. There are also several faction slots used to represent emerging factions, such as the Normans, or the Goths. The advantage of this approach is that it allows for a long, epic game, with a lot of potential to re-write history while still keeping things interesting and giving a good overall sense of the entire period. The disadvantage is that it uses up faction slots that might otherwise be playable. This the concept I’ve been working with.

The other way I could do this, is to focus more on a historical campaign using pretty much only the specific factions available at the starting date. This would free up a number of faction slots, which would add a lot more detail to the beginning of the game, and give the player a much greater initial feeling of immersion and history. The drawback, though, is that the campaign will lose any sense of historicity once it enters the later game. One potential solution to this would be to have a series of campaigns. The first would start in 768, with Charlemagne’s ascent, the next in 843 with the partition of his empire, and so on.

I’m starting to lean toward the second option, but I’m interested in hearing peoples' opinions about it.