The study of Fascism, Nazism, and related topics

[Khannis]

Inspired by topics such as this http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=520965 and this http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=521091, I created a new topic to discuss a related issue:

I study History in my country, Brazil, in the Universidade de Sao Paulo, often considered the best in the country, and, although we certainly don't hear things like "Hitler is evil", etc. in our classes, there IS a huge taboo on the specialized study of those phenomena, with all researchers who do not include extensive moral (and therefore subjective) criticism in their research being virtually shunned inside the academic community, though many of these researches are not apologists at all. Sometimes this kind of ostracism applies even to the study of themes that are somewhat remotely related to Nazi/Fascism, like the expansion of the Teutonic Knights into the Baltic, german-speaking settlements outside of germany, Habsburg germanization of Bohemia, ethnic italians in the Balkans, etc.

I do think that this kind of thing is unacceptable in any kind of academic community, where all research should be encouraged and valued if well-conducted (logical arguments, good reading of historical sources and previous research in the same and related fields, etc.) Thoughts?

[Kanaric]

Must be a euro or south american thing. In my WW2 history class we had weeks devoted to discussing fascism and nazis

[I Heart Romans]

Must be a euro or south american thing. In my WW2 history class we had weeks devoted to discussing fascism and nazis

In England we spent a lot of time studying why the Nazi Party did what they did, it was pretty unbiased learning. I can understand why it's still an issue in some countries, they tend to be the ones with relatively popular far right groups.

Probably a connection there. Probably.

[Khannis]

In England we spent a lot of time studying why the Nazi Party did what they did, it was pretty unbiased learning. I can understand why it's still an issue in some countries, they tend to be the ones with relatively popular far right groups.

Probably a connection there. Probably.

Yes, we devote a good time to learning the subject in classes, and it IS pretty unbiased. What I'm saying is that new research that questions widely accepted assumptions, the Holocaust figures being the most famous issue, but far from the only one, is shunned in this field, while it's openly accepted in other fields, where questioning all kinds of data is viewed as a healthy thing. The same can be said of research that focus on the cultural aspects of pan-germanism and expansion, both in times more remote (e.g. Teutonic Knights) and in the 20th century.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Must be a euro or south american thing. In my WW2 history class we had weeks devoted to discussing fascism and nazis

Well here in Ireland I studied it for two years as a quarter of my senior cycle history course, and it was also detached without any judgement.

But the OP isn't talking about teaching the basics. He's talking about academic historians with an interest in this field. New research gets one labelled a nazi unless one includes all kinds of subjective rantings in the report. If you were part of a group trying to establish how many people were murdered by "einsatzgruppe" in a certain area of the Ukraine, and the numbers turned out to be less than expected, you're automatically a nazi sympathizer with an agenda. Yet you probably took part in the project for noble reasons, to establish the facts and who is responsible.

We don't see this even in other areas of history. It's perfectly fine to hypothesize and speculate about the Red Army's crimes coming the other direction, and communist idealism in general, and this is a healthy scientific mindset. It's perfectly fine to study pan-islamic fundamentalism and those who want the return of the caliphate and religious intolerance, and this too is a healthy scientific mindset. Yet there is definitely a stigma attached to studying similar subjects related to the nazis.

[Khannis]

Well here in Ireland I studied it for two years as a quarter of my senior cycle history course, and it was also detached without any judgement.

But the OP isn't talking about teaching the basics. He's talking about academic historians with an interest in this field. New research gets one labelled a nazi unless one includes all kinds of subjective rantings in the report. If you were part of a group trying to establish how many people were murdered by "einsatzgruppe" in a certain area of the Ukraine, and the numbers turned out to be less than expected, you're automatically a nazi sympathizer with an agenda. Yet you probably took part in the project for noble reasons, to establish the facts and who is responsible.

We don't see this even in other areas of history. It's perfectly fine to hypothesize and speculate about the Red Army's crimes coming the other direction, and communist idealism in general, and this is a healthy scientific mindset. It's perfectly fine to study pan-islamic fundamentalism and those who want the return of the caliphate and religious intolerance, and this too is a healthy scientific mindset. Yet there is definitely a stigma attached to studying similar subjects related to the nazis.

Exactly what I meant, thank you.

[Primo]

Must be a euro or south american thing. In my WW2 history class we had weeks devoted to discussing fascism and nazis

In Germany: Hitler is evil! Weimarer Republic was absolutely perfect till Hitler made the financial crisis and used it to gain control of germany in order to bring the total war to everyone on earth!

Ok, In most german schools this is actually a bit more neutral, but ...

[hellheaven1987]

Well, Fascism is in fact an Italian attempt to replay Roman Empire under Augustus, and you would be surprised to find out what Mussolini did was exactly what Octavius did before. So yes we can say first fascist state is in fact Roman Empire itself.

[Inkie]

The reason is quite simple: What little 'sympathy' there was for such studies has been steadily eroded by the large amounts of thinly-veiled (or not) Nazi apologists or 'qualified' researchers with a clear agenda who, by attempting to further their arguments, have almost irrevocably tainted the field. It's unfortunate...

[Himster]

In Ireland our history courses was decided by an actual nazi war criminal, SS frontline soldier and gestapo agent; who escaped from prison, the company he founded is still the largest educational publication company on the island: Folens. De Velera was practically a fascist too, who responded to the red-cross' appeal to house jewish refugees: "I don't think they would fit in". To say our history books are "detatched" is a slight understatement.

[Thorn777]

Sometimes this kind of ostracism applies even to the study of themes that are somewhat remotely related to Nazi/Fascism, like the expansion of the Teutonic Knights into the Baltic, german-speaking settlements outside of germany, Habsburg germanization of Bohemia, ethnic italians in the Balkans, etc.

lolwut?

[Khannis]

lolwut?

This is connected to the revival of the notions of Größdeutschland and Italian (or Roman) Empire and their respective historical justifications at the time, and the ample use of these by apologists of Nazi/Fascism.