The Sekigahara Campaign - Suggestions and Feedback

[The_Nord]

I personally don't think you even need the map to change from early spring to mid spring, the spring map looks good enough to cover both. And I'm not sure how this works since I'm not a modder, but, couldn't you make it so the Sekigahara campaign and the Osaka campaign have more turns per yer, and the Edo campaign the normal amount?

[The_Nord]

My bad on that part. Its easier to base on the 1600s, I knew Kato would be a thorny issue coz when Hideyoshi is alive, Kato was a deep and true Toyotomi man but dead..........maaaaaaaybe not so much. But the mod has Hideyoshi alive and kicking......sooooooooo here is a nice link to distract you from my inadequacies...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sengoku...ry/5820588852/

Yeah, history sources says he joined Tokugawa because Kato hated Ishida for various reasons. What's really interesting is what Ishida would've done had he won the Sekigahara campaign. Would he have let Hideyori take power once he was old enough, or would he outmanouver Hideyori polictally? I personally believe the latter to be true.

And thanks for the image!

[yoshisuke]

The fact that the map doesn't change if a season last two or three turns is not an issue to me. After all it doen't snow everywhere every winter, the map simply gives an idea of the season and it wouldn't ruin the immersion. And to resolve the issue with the game being finished before the 1600's, why not start in 1598. The idea being Hideyoshi survived and stopped the Korean war, creating a tension wich would lead to a civil war. That's not more historically correct but not less either..

Edit : Well, my idea was pretty bad, I must admit. But I'm still a strong supporter of the one turn/one month idea. It makes the armies movement and the constructon times more realistic.
Maybe for a sub-mod or something, if redoing the startpos and all was not so much work.

[The_Nord]

I noticed that you haven't given Maeda Toshiie the armour set in the game that belongs to him in 0.75 any particular reason for it? (maybe you just haven't gotten around to it). Also I found a reference to Maeda Toshinaga that said he wore the same kind of kabuto as his father, except silver lacquered, In said picture, Toshinagas armour is rather mundane, not at all like his father's golden armour. Perhaps a good idea to implement?

Btw, regarding the Date-clan Hatamoto ashigaru unit we've discussed, the osprey book actually states they wear a samurai kabuto, with golden lacquer for the papier machié that makes it look like a traffic cone. Since we can't mod in that particular helmet, how about having the Hatamoto Ashigaru wear (to make them distinct and more elite looking) a golden samurai kabuto? Other than that they should have normal ashigaru armour, and in my opinion the extra long yari.

[Akaie]

The fact that the map doesn't change if a season last two or three turns is not an issue to me. After all it doen't snow everywhere every winter, the map simply gives an idea of the season and it wouldn't ruin the immersion. And to resolve the issue with the game being finished before the 1600's, why not start in 1598. The idea being Hideyoshi survived and stopped the Korean war, creating a tension wich would lead to a civil war. That's not more historically correct but not less either..

Edit : Well, my idea was pretty bad, I must admit. But I'm still a strong supporter of the one turn/one month idea. It makes the armies movement and the constructon times more realistic.
Maybe for a sub-mod or something, if redoing the startpos and all was not so much work.

One of the benefits of the 1591 starting year is that players have 1600 as a point of conclusion; by that time, the player would have asserted control similar to what Ieyasu had. It also supports the overall feel of the two great unifiers fighting it out for control of the country. Personally, that's far better than a focus on a Toyotomi vassal fighting one of the great unifiers.

This reminds me of why Radious is down-right awesome. So much modularity! Consider this: I will eventually have to maintain two startpos.esf; one for the major clan pack and one for the minor clan pack. If we do implement 12 turns-per-year, it will add another two startpos.esf. Maybe...

Overall, more turns per year is a great idea, but to implement it in this particular campaign demands many conceptual changes that I don't believe to be appropriate. As you note, a sub-mod perhaps.

I noticed that you haven't given Maeda Toshiie the armour set in the game that belongs to him in 0.75 any particular reason for it? (maybe you just haven't gotten around to it). Also I found a reference to Maeda Toshinaga that said he wore the same kind of kabuto as his father, except silver lacquered, In said picture, Toshinagas armour is rather mundane, not at all like his father's golden armour. Perhaps a good idea to implement?

Btw, regarding the Date-clan Hatamoto ashigaru unit we've discussed, the osprey book actually states they wear a samurai kabuto, with golden lacquer for the papier machié that makes it look like a traffic cone. Since we can't mod in that particular helmet, how about having the Hatamoto Ashigaru wear (to make them distinct and more elite looking) a golden samurai kabuto? Other than that they should have normal ashigaru armour, and in my opinion the extra long yari.

Sorry. I didn't get to it. I didn't want to stretch development of a mere beta for too long. I'll be sure to add Toshiie's unit parts (there's not actually an entire set for him; a kabuto and a dō, if I remember correctly) and add extra minor daimyo models.

Date Hatamoto Ashigaru sounds pretty good. I'll bring it up in a discussion once I start work on it .

[The_Nord]

Ah yes, you are of course right, there isn't an entire Toshiie set. But the parts that are available, should be put to use! And the more turns per year thing is indeed a complicated affair.

[Akaie]

Yup. Although we have plenty of unit parts to use; I'll just be sure to pick visually relative ones.

[The_Nord]

You've been looking to represent the Edo period a bit in this mod, and I have an idea. It says in the ingame encylopaedia that the Tokugawa created a number of guard/elite regiments before and after their rise to the shogunate, we already have the great guard, but, in light of the Red and Yellow cav on the toyotomi side, perhaps one or two could be created for the Tokugawa. Or would we end up with too many elite Cavalry units?

[Robin de Bodemloze]

You've been looking to represent the Edo period a bit in this mod, and I have an idea. It says in the ingame encylopaedia that the Tokugawa created a number of guard/elite regiments before and after their rise to the shogunate, we already have the great guard, but, in light of the Red and Yellow cav on the toyotomi side, perhaps one or two could be created for the Tokugawa. Or would we end up with too many elite Cavalry units?

I wouldn't mind elite cavalry units, but I would mind if by using different colour schemes we made them look like power rangers

[wealthmonger]

I wouldn't mind elite cavalry units, but I would mind if by using different colour schemes we made them look like power rangers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0YkXmebAGM

[Robin de Bodemloze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0YkXmebAGM

I officially have to kill you now...

[yoshisuke]

Btw, regarding the Date-clan Hatamoto ashigaru unit we've discussed, the osprey book actually states they wear a samurai kabuto, with golden lacquer for the papier machié that makes it look like a traffic cone. Since we can't mod in that particular helmet, how about having the Hatamoto Ashigaru wear (to make them distinct and more elite looking) a golden samurai kabuto? Other than that they should have normal ashigaru armour, and in my opinion the extra long yari.

Yes, a gold zunari kabuto (because it was a cheap kabuto easy to produce) and a long yari.
But I disagree with the armor, they have to wear the yukinoshita-do, it's a design specific to the Date clan and Masamune ordered his men to wear it. In fact it was the first "mass-produced" bulletproof armor and it became a symbol of the Date clan.
But they should wear ashigaru clothes though.
The officer could be based on Katakura Shigetsuna.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yukinoshita-do, Masamune's kabuto in gold with this maedate, maybe.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[The_Nord]

Thanks for pointing that out, they should most definitvely wear the yukinoshita-do! So, ashigaru cothes, Yukinoshita-do, golden kabuto and extra long yari. Just make sure they don't look to samurai-like.

[yoshisuke]

The only problem I see is samurai armor + kabuto + ashigaru clothes = cheap samurai and not elite ashigaru. Maybe a complete samurai outfit with a gold ashigaru jingasa would look better.

[The_Nord]

In the picture in Samurai warfare, they wear a yukinoshita-do with a bright yellow sun mon, suneate, sleeves with only small metal stripe-thingys, a simple kabuto with gold lacquered papier-mâché on top looking like a traffic cone, and what appears to be a pike.
We can't do the cone-thing, but we could do a gold-coloured simple kabuto/jingasa. I'll add that i'd rather have them wearing samurai clothes underneath instead of the shorts worn by many ashigaru in the game.
So in my suggestion they would wear: Samurai clothes, (Since i'm not a modder, I don't know how the relationship between the pants, shirt and kote would work) Simple kote-armoured sleeves (green in the picture in the osprey book), Yukinoshitado-do with bright yellow sun mon, gold colour simple kabuto and a extra long yari. As for the sode (shoulder guards) they should have the "standard" ashigaru ones. And no Haidate (thigh guards).

In your suggestion they would wear a complete samurai outfit, with the chestpiece consisting of a Yukinoshita-do (black I would guess), with a bright yellow sun mon with a gold jingasa, and extra long yari.

To be honest, both suggestions sounds like they would make for an awesome unit!

[Erwin Rommel]

ROMMEL TO THE RESCUE!

I say turn it into a Jizamurai like what the Zen mod did.

(Especially since this concerns the Date, which requires my attention....)

[yoshisuke]

Yes, this unit has a lot of potential ! One thing bothers me, though. In the osprey book pic, ykinoshita-do was designed with a small plate on the shoulder to replace the sode. So the two were rarely used together. It works for high ranking general who wants to look distinct from regular soldiers but ashigaru shouldn't have them. The problem is, I'm not sure this can be done in the game since a samurai either have sode or a jinbaori.

[The_Nord]

ROMMEL TO THE RESCUE!

I say turn it into a Jizamurai like what the Zen mod did.

(Especially since this concerns the Date, which requires my attention....)

Yes that picture, which I refrained from posting since Osprey has complained that their works are being posted on the internet.

Since you're the Date-fanatic, what do you think they should look like in the mod, the Date Hatamoto that is?

[yoshisuke]

Well.. The problem is :
"In 1591 Hideyoshi would follow up the Sword Hunt with his Edict on Changing Status. This extremely important document was divided into three articles, with the first demanding that any warriors who had recently returned to village life be expelled. The second article forbad villagers from becoming townspeople or engaging in trade, and third article essentially prohibited the hire of warriors who had deserted their previous lords. In no uncertain terms and without precedent, Hideyoshi drew a wide line between villager and warrior status, one that was absolutely not to be crossed. In one stroke, Hideyoshi slammed the door shut on social mobility, abolishing the concept of the ji-zamurai, or 'samurai of the land' who tilled the soil when not at war. Even lowly ashigaru were made samurai, albeit low-ranking ones, and were forbidden to do village work and were eventually ordered to live in the castle town of their lords. Almost as unpopular as the land surveys Hideyoshi ordered, the Sword Hunt and the Status edict guaranteed that there would not be another Toyotomi Hideyoshi"

http://www.samurai-archives.com/hideyoshi.html

It was the main idea behind this unit (and others) by the time of sekigahara the ashigaru were professional soldiers. And this unit is a good exemple of that, better equiped, trained and with a uniform.

[Akaie]

Pic removed. RROOMMMMMMEEEEELLLL!