What is your fav siege tactics (offensive)

**hanter** · February 08, 2012, 03:28 AM

I've tried numerous times assualting city walls via various methods....

1) Using siege towers hitting at 1 point while using ladders to hit other 'lesser' troop spots
2) Using battering rams instead of siege towers and using ladders (pretty much the same as above)
3) Simply hammering down the walls with siege weapons (obviously not applicable until later periods)
4) Get my spy in to open doors....obviously this is hit and miss

Honestly I've not tried other methods because I do not know of any. What are methods/ways you guess use to have a successful siege with lower casualty?

I noticed that if I let the computer do it (i.e auto) my casualty rate is always very low...of course my troops have to be better than the defenders otherwise my casualty rate might be high. Still I get way more casualty attacking myself. I would prefer to do the deed myself but definately prefer a lower casualty rate. Any ideas?

**Germanicu5** · February 08, 2012, 03:47 AM

If possible get some catapults etc, if wall destruction isn't plausibly doable, then damage gatehouse.

Strategy A:

1. Build many aditional siege equipment pieces, make some useless units carry them and place them on the side of a settlement to make AI spread its forces (ideal would be pretending you're assaulting a 2nd gate).
2. Stand there for the most of the battle, when AI goes back to help its army at your main assault point, attack 2nd gate (or not).

Strategy B (exploit?)

Do #1, make main assault army drop siege equipment before battle and pick it up only after battle start.

Regards

**TheRomanRuler** · February 08, 2012, 06:50 AM

Well sieges aren`t suppose to be easy, otherwise there wouldn`t be any castles!

But to answer:
1. Put you archers in loose formation to shoot same place you attack with you siege tower.When arrows are getting low, take 1 siege tower at weak spot of enemy wall (lower tier units in it) and ladders EVERYWHERE so enemy can`t send reinforcements. At the same time, my ram starts breaching gates. When gate is breached, i already got enough men on the walls, so i send rest of my army to brake defenders at the gate. If i have cav, i send them in wedge formation first.
This will inflict you many casualties, but i won sieges(as attacker) where i got 2/3 AI`s forces.

2.Don`t really have secondary tactic.. Not necessary

**Homeros** · February 08, 2012, 10:43 AM

Sun Tsu already stated that attacking (fortified) cities (or castles) is the worst thing any commander can do

Personally, I don't fight siege battles because I consider them boring and easily exploited (especially when defending). One of the most effective ways to capture enemy settlements is to catch their armies just outside their walls. Assuming you don't use overwhelming force (so the AI might retreat) you fight the enemy in the field with the garrison as reinforcements. The nice bonus is that the garrison will die (all of em) if you win the battle (it doesn't matter how many fled the field - they'll be gone for good anyway). After that you just walk into an empty (and undamaged) town!

This can be tricky at times and you need spies to scout ahead. But the AI likes to place units outside the walls and when there's a full stack inside you only have to wait a turn or two til they recruit new units (who don't fit in the already full stack and) who will be outside the walls waiting for you to attack. Using bait to lure the enemy out of their cities also works reasonably well.

I don't know if you're using Germanicus5's AI mod (highly recommendable) and like I said I don't have that much assaulting experience, but I recall the default SS AI doesn't like your units inside their cities. When you attack from multiple sides and get a couple units inside the walls, the AI usually calls back all (or most) of its troops to defend the town centre (or the next wall). When you use this to your advantage you can effectively use missile and artillery units to mow down those fools from a safe distance. It's worth noting that attacking them with melee units will result in high casualties on your side regardless the units involved - only use that if all other means are depleted.

Hard-hitting horse archers plus a spy to open the gates are highly effective too. I used this playing the Mongols and I needed only four HA units (to attack from all (4) sides) to take out large armies. They're basically invincible but beware of (fast moving) enemy cavalry (and disable skirmish mode - it doesn't work inside cities). Infantry cannot catch them (they're too slow). Archers will run away when your HA come too close (and they can't fire on the move) = WIN.

This leads to another effective approach: Use a small (but strong) force to attack from a different angle. The AI usually deploys (most of) its units on one side. If your small force can get in and secure the town centre the AI is forced to reclaim it. Can be tricky at times, but it's very deadly. Just make sure you've smashed the gate so your troops can rush in and intercept the units that defended the walls and are now retreating to the city centre. It will be carnage! To reduce casualties you can also use the timer to win the day. One or a couple units can hold off a large force for a while - leave one unit in the town centre and you'll be victorious.

**Ichon** · February 08, 2012, 01:08 PM

1. Avoid siege assault vs large garrison. This could mean attacking more often in the field before laying siege, waiting until enemy has a force close to the city/castle so the garrison will join as reinforcements, lay siege with a 25% smaller force which usually will draw AI to sally, introduce plague to lower garrison size, lay siege and starve the garrison down for a few turns before attacking.

2. If you must attack the priority is gaining entrance without fighting at the walls. This could mean artillery to bring walls down, spy to open gates, or attacking from multiple sides to force AI to spread out while using your quality troops against the AI's weakest troops then once a gate is held rush other parts of your army through while pinning the best AI units where they are on other sections of the wall by advancing a bit closer to the walls with those units as a feint.

This way you can then defeat AI in detail a portion at the time with your best units without tower or archer fire from the walls resulting in much lower casualties. If AI responds very quickly to the held gate/wall breach then use the walls against AI by placing your own missile troops on the walls firing into AI. You will still take more casualties than in a field battle against the same force most of the time but should only be 25-50% more. If you would normally lose 300 in a field battlevs the same army in a siege you shouldn't lose more than 450 or you are doing something wrong.

**wrcromartie** · February 08, 2012, 05:24 PM

Spies opening the gates are obviously a huge advantage here. I pretty much do not try to assault well-garrisoned cities without either a ton of powerful artillery to knock down walls, or preferably spies to open gates. Either way you will need some heavy infantry, don't even bother trying to take stacked garrisons without them. If you are facing a strong opponent & you have open gates, here's a good strategy:

Deploy most of the artillery & archers in front. Then tactically place the siege equipment to provide barriers in front & around the flanks of your artillery and archers. Siege towers & Rams are both pretty effective as defensive structures should any cavalry units try to sally and charge your missile troops & arty. I like to put 1-2 spear units in here as well. The idea is that your "Front Force" will be the force the garrison primarily deploys & reacts to, while it WON'T be the most important part of your attack force.

If there are any trees on either side of the city, put the majority of your heavy infantry in hiding there - away from your front-facing force.

If the settlement has 3 entrances, put all your cavalry on the opposite side. If the settlement only has 2 entrances, I like to put cavalry in between my front force & my side force so they can go either way.

When the battle begins, your opponent will ideally have most of his troops facing your front force.

Sometimes the AI realizes it is screwed when the gates open, so it might run towards the city center. This isn't great - try your best to keep the enemy units from reaching the city center, where they immediately become un-rout-able and much more of a pain in the @$$. If the enemy runs, you run all your troops straight in & try to beat them to the center. Preferably your cavalry troops can make it to the city center & hit them in the back from the other side, keeping them out of the 'rally zone'.

If they are polite enough to stand in front, beat them up a bit with your shooters. I have had a few battles using this strategy where the enemy will actually sally out, thinking they have the upper hand on my shooters. This is ideal because if you placed your Siege Equipment correctly it will be very difficult for enemy troops to effectively charge your shooters. Once they are all messed up trying to chase your shooters through the blockades, you can destroy them easily with your cavalry. You'll trade minimal casualties to cheap units for massive casualties to whatever they sally this way (hopefully horses / heavy infantry).

One personal opinion that I'd like others smarter than me such as Germanicus to verify - I don't feel like killing the enemy general is as beneficial in siege battles as it normally would be, because the morale penalty is wasted once enemy units make it to the city center. As such, I'd focus on killing their meaty units first - on H or VH generals are a b#@% to take down so this might save you some grief.

Other general thoughts for siege battles on offense -
-Never send units up ladders where the walls are occupied, they will get smashed
-You can run while carrying ladders - use misdirection to your benefit
-You can use siege towers as arrow shields as well as for scaling walls
-You can use cheap units to tire out defenders before committing better units to the battle
-Ballistas are useless until you get them INSIDE the enemies walls...then they are fun to point at the city center
-Crossbow units are also pretty useless until you get them inside the walls...pavise crossbowmen are good at soaking up missiles at least
-If the enemy lumps up in the city center, those crossbow men can redeem themselves by pelting the enemy until they grow a pair and chase you out
-1-2 light cavalry come in handy if you have to race to the city center

**kraxmause** · February 10, 2012, 02:55 AM

Quick question on a slightly different topic: How do I lower the probability of siege equipment being set on fire by flaming arrows? If you attack a wall segment with even only a weak archer unit on it you've got something like a 25% chance of actually reaching the wall with your siege tower which is just too low.
Siege towers were built to resist fire (covered with wet animal hide etc.) and I can't imagine a unit of peasant archers setting it aflame with only two volleys is historically realistic.
In TATW it is virtually impossible to destroy siege equipment with anything different than artillery; now this is something I don't want. There's always a chance of a weak spot in a tower's construction or just bad luck, but right now siege assaults are the battles I hate most, mainly because of this problem.

**Ataraxie** · February 10, 2012, 11:25 AM

kraxmause - I'd simply not recommend using siege towers. As you say, they're slow, vulnerable and when you get there drop their men onto whatever is waiting in such a way that can often result in defeat.

Stick with ladders and artillery, you'll never go wrong

**Ataraxie** · February 10, 2012, 11:36 AM

For my own part - my favourite strategy is to get some professional/heavily armoured chaps with ladders, and just go at it. Macemen are great for this, as are dismounted feudal knights. I really can't remember the name of the battle, but I'm pretty sure it was in India - the British army turned up with their ladders, advanced and took the walls.

It might cause a bit of a bloodbath in-game, but then it is usually about 1150 when you're assaulting with ladders - it shouldn't matter.

**buncheesy** · February 11, 2012, 03:30 AM

Am I just a scaredy cat? I really worry about the burning oil so I wont go through the gate until I have taken the wall or I know the oposition will fall quickly or I am going through the inner circle and I have no choice. I wont go through the gate until the walls are taken even when a spy opens them, unless the enemy has run away to the central square/inner fort. When I am defending I LOVE holding the enemy at the gate and watching them BURN.

I play RBAI5.2 by the way with settlement tweaks so the eney does a more reasonable job of defending.

am I taking more casulaties than I need to be not rushing the gate?

**hanter** · February 11, 2012, 03:57 AM

Ok I tried the mis-direction tactic as advised and it worked great. Thanks guys. Here's the break-down:

My troop numbers: 1097
Enemy troop numbers: 500plus (in city) + 200plus (reinforcements from outside)

My kills = 700plus
Enemy kills = 200plus

First I used my calvary to moo down the reinforcements and in the end only about 1 or 2 regiments (60-70 odd) made it into the city.

Next I went to position my troops to 3 sides of the city. 2 siege towers and 2 ladders each side. During the maneuvor the enemy got alittle confused as to which side I will hit because I divided my 3 armies fairly equally interms of attacking strength. Just to note, at the beginning I didn't know where and what reinforcements will be so I brought my whole army together...didn't want to separate them without knowing the enemy position/type.

Once all 3 sides were inposition, I launched a simultanious attack on all 3 sides forcing the enemy to spread their numbers thinner to defend all 3 sides. Obviously I quickly overwhelmed them and they quickly ran back to the town centre. By now, I've captured the 3 gates and had them open.

I moved my remaining calvary and standby troops towards all 3 gates keeping the enemy guessing which gate I will enter from. Eventually I charged my light calvary through the front gate and met strong resistance from enemy calvary+spearman. It was a bloodbath there. Once they enemy was engaged. I quickly moved my remaining army (which was pretty much 3/4 of my total numbers) through a 2nd gate.

My light calvary charge (with the troops there who first captured the gates) was my distraction. I kept most of my men on the walls shooting javelins down. Bringing most of my army through the 2nd gate, I quickly attacked the remaining enemy troops at the town centre forcing the enemy to pull some men back to the town centre.

Result, I managed to divde the enemy into 2 while only sacrificing my light calvary and front gate troops. My remaining army easily mopped up the confused enemy and my general didn't even break a sweat....was standing at the starting position the whole time

**Homeros** · February 11, 2012, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by hanter

Just to note, at the beginning I didn't know where and what reinforcements will be so I brought my whole army together...didn't want to separate them without knowing the enemy position/type.

You do know where reinforcements will show up. You can see it on the campaign map and even better when the game zooms in when you're going to fight a battle.

For example: I tried to reclaim Constantinople (playing the Romans, late era). The defending (rebel) army had split its forces into two (half) stacks. One inside the city, one in front of it (south east of the walls). I didn't besieged the city but attacked the army in front of it. I hit them from the north so the garrison would enter the battlefield on my left flank (coming from the east). I deployed my army on the far east side of the deployment area so the reinforcements would walk straigth into my welcome party. This way I could use overwhelming numbers and force to quickly take out the reinforcing army before the other (field) army could join the fight > easy victory.

Postioning your army (on the campaign map) in a smart way can make huge difference. Try to use it to your advantage.

Nice work with your assault

One other thing of note is that smashing the gates will damage the walls / castle (building). These have nice repression / happiness bonuses which are useful to keep the peace when you've taken the settlement. Ladders and siege towers do not damage the building, I only use those (no rams) when I'm out of money and/or attacking a settlements with a large population of a different religion - that really helps to keep order and gives you more units to continue your offensive.

**Ichon** · February 11, 2012, 03:46 AM

Probably not. Unless you have some heavy cavalry you don't mind losing rushing the gate is expansive. Even if your heavy cavalry push the enemy back from the gate the oil will still pour until you control the walls and every unit passing under will lose 10-30%

**Son of Mars** · February 11, 2012, 10:19 AM

I usually just try to starve them out if it's a small castle/city, but on larger ones I wait until the garrison is depleted enough. But otherwise I have the same problems that you do.

**Henry X** · February 11, 2012, 04:47 PM

I overrun the walls with siege equipment.

**Ferdiad** · February 11, 2012, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Henry X

I overrun the walls with siege equipment.

Takes time and causes needless casualties.

**Son of Mars** · February 12, 2012, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Henry X

I overrun the walls with siege equipment.

I have never had much success at avoiding casualties assaulting with ladders or towers tbh, I think catapults and trebuchets take care of wall defenders much better

**Henry X** · February 11, 2012, 11:19 PM

Hardly. A few more casualties yes. Takes more time? Hardly.

And it can be argued that I'm actually avoiding casualties by keeping them from fighting in the town center.

**Ferdiad** · February 12, 2012, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Henry X

Hardly. A few more casualties yes. Takes more time? Hardly.

And it can be argued that I'm actually avoiding casualties by keeping them from fighting in the town center.

Not really, 1/100 fights dont involve the AI camping the town centre with at least 2 or more units.

**wrcromartie** · February 13, 2012, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Ferdiad

Not really, 1/100 fights dont involve the AI camping the town centre with at least 2 or more units.

If my spies have opened the gates, my enemies often seem to break towards the town center once I start heading in. It usually does not work out for them though.