Proposal: Event Resolutions

[dIRECT0R]

I've been thinking about how TATW could become more appealing, and I think one of its main shortcomings is the problem of the "Neverending Conflict". It becomes tiresome to continuously fight off more-or-less identical armies the AI dispatches repeatedly without end. In fact, that's all the game becomes about. It is almost impossible to conclude a lasting peace with an enemy faction with the diplomacy AI. Once you've conquered what you wanted/needed, you're given a choice of actually destroying your enemy completely (a time-consuming task in itself) or just being attacked over and over and over again.

Take Gondor for example. Does Gondor really have to conquer all of the Harad to have peace? Or all of Mordor? Shouldn't Mordor at least sue for peace after you've taken Barad Dur? And shouldn't Harad become a vassal of Gondor once its thoroughly defeated? (as was the case more than once in Lore)

In my opinion, it would an excellent addition to the game's mechanics to have events that give you the choice of achieving more-or-less permanent peace with various factions, once certain conditions are met. Here's a few more examples of what I mean:

• You're playing with Mordor and you capture Minas Tirith. You are given a choice of continuing the war, or accepting a proposed peace offer from Gondor that would move the borders to a certain point (and pacify Gondor as a defeated faction).
  
• You're playing with Gondor and you capture all of South Gondor and Umbar (or perhaps something else also, as modders see fit), and you receive an event peace offer from Harad which gives you the choice of continuing the conflict - or moving the borders to a certain point (possibly with Gondor controlling South Gondor and Umbar) and the forcing the Haradrim into a vassal relationship. Etc.

Now, I must point out that I'm no modder, and I have no concept of how potentially difficult (or impossible) such a modification might be. I just think its a good concept that would add greatly to the game's overall appeal. Players want the game to acknowledge when they really have "mastered a foe", and not expect them to just continuously fight standard-issue battles over and over again.

[Mikail Mengsk]

The problem is that the AI usually breaks truces almost immediately. That kind of event would be useful, but won't solve entirely the problem because the "defeated" enemy will come back attacking in a few turns. AI limits.

[Minas Moth]

The problem is that the AI usually breaks truces almost immediately. That kind of event would be useful, but won't solve entirely the problem because the "defeated" enemy will come back attacking in a few turns. AI limits.

yes but if it possible to lock diplomatic relations via script (what real alliances sub-mod does) then it is just a matter of scripting it that when you met certain conditions such event pops up and then AI doesn't attack you after it became vassal. ofc, you can sript it that they eventually do attack you if other requirements are met.

[dIRECT0R]

The problem is that the AI usually breaks truces almost immediately. That kind of event would be useful, but won't solve entirely the problem because the "defeated" enemy will come back attacking in a few turns. AI limits.

Surely there's a way to ensure the AI doesn't break a truce? Even when I break-off our alliance, Rohan does not attack me as Gondor...

But even so, there's always the possibility of forcing an alliance and/or a vassal relationship? Perhaps this is not applicable to "irreconcilable" factions such as Mordor and Gondor (where we might destroy the AI faction upon achieving a set of circumstances), but I can certainly see Harad or Rhun swearing fealty to Gondor or to Dale/Rhovanion.

[tonplan]

You could also say that according to the Lore, Morder, Rhun, and Harad want to destroy Gondor completely. Nevertheless I agree with your proposal. It does get tiring when you have to root out a faction in the far corners of the campaign map. +rep

[dIRECT0R]

You could also say that according to the Lore, Mordor, Rhun, and Harad want to destroy Gondor completely.

Think about it: as I would ideally have it, the AI would not get the event, and you would have a choice whether you want to (for example) destroy Gondor or conclude a peace. Ideally they all wanted to destroy each-other, but remember the Mouth of Sauron and Sauron's willingness to conclude a peace (an Eeeevil peace, but a peace nonetheless ).

Nevertheless I agree with your proposal. It does get tiring when you have to root out a faction in the far corners of the campaign map. +rep

In my book, the inability to actually win a war short of unrealistically expanding Gondor (or Rohan etc.) to the ends of the known universe - is the no.1 problem of this game. Your other choice is to fight off one identical army after the other in endless succession, and when I do reach Africa, the game looses all flavor and contact with Lore (Gondorian jungle troopers?).

[mattttb]

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea to me, maybe one compatible with those interested in shorter campaigns?

Maybe the victory conditions could be something like conquering say 25-30 regions as Gondor (basically starting regions plus Harondor, the Eastern side of the Anduin, Barad-Dûr, and maybe Umbar) and managing to beat Mordor and Harad into submission (vassalage or something similar) rather than full out destroying them.

I could see something like this working well, and it would actually be relatively true-to-lore

[halland]

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea to me, maybe one compatible with those interested in shorter campaigns?

Maybe the victory conditions could be something like conquering say 25-30 regions as Gondor (basically starting regions plus Harondor, the Eastern side of the Anduin, Barad-Dûr, and maybe Umbar) and managing to beat Mordor and Harad into submission (vassalage or something similar) rather than full out destroying them.

I could see something like this working well, and it would actually be relatively true-to-lore

That would be very accurate I think, considering Aragorn basically recaptured the lands that belonged to Gondor, but then allowed those easterlings and southrons to live in their own land in peace. Really would be a good way to make the campaigns more ... fulfilling.

Good idea dIRECTOR

[Spits32]

I saw the Silvan Elves make the OotMM vassals in a rohan campaign once. I think they had 2-3 settlements left. So I suppose this feature already exists in diplomacy. The AI just has to be really weak for it to work I suppose.

[k/t]

One more reason to remove the Help Weakened Factions Script.

[Withwnar]

Vassals are hard to get (and they can't be scripted). Total Diplomacy's Forced Diplomacy could be used to force some diplomatic stances with your own faction, including Vassalage I suppose though I have never tried it.

But it won't stop the alliances from being broken. Sauron calling Invasions, for one thing, is an potential alliance breaker. Perhaps something that could leave Harad in a permanently excommunicated state - or even change their religion away from Melkor - could be a solution there. Combine that with Unbreakable Alliances and something like Forced Diplomacy and you might have something.

I'd be willing to give a it a shot, adding it to Total Diplomacy. But my cup is full at the moment. Nice idea Director.

[Santeri]

Maybe for human factions but I would never want to see something like this with Mordor or other orc factions. Sauron is trying to enslave the whole Middle-Earth so making peace after they have conquered Minas Tirith? No way! I think it would just provoke them to war even more. OoMM and OoG are both subjects of Sauron so case would be same and I bet Saruman wouldn't make peace with Rohan after win in Helms Deep.

What comes in defeating orcs while player is human, elf or dwarf faction maybe if you take their critical locations they would stop receiving money and stacks so you wouldn't have to conquer them entirelly. Seeing Mordor as my vassal would be

[dIRECT0R]

Maybe for human factions but I would never want to see something like this with Mordor or other orc factions. Sauron is trying to enslave the whole Middle-Earth so making peace after they have conquered Minas Tirith? No way! I think it would just provoke them to war even more. OoMM and OoG are both subjects of Sauron so case would be same and I bet Saruman wouldn't make peace with Rohan after win in Helms Deep.

What comes in defeating orcs while player is human, elf or dwarf faction maybe if you take their critical locations they would stop receiving money and stacks so you wouldn't have to conquer them entirelly. Seeing Mordor as my vassal would be

I agree there, I wasn't suggesting something of the sort. Mordor, Orcs of the Misty Mountains, and Gundabad should not become vassals - but they should be forced to conclude a lasting peace under certain circumstances. Isengard can probably be made to hand over much of its lands and become a vassal of Rohan (or possibly Gondor).

Mordor is a special case in more than one way. Ideally, this is what I would do with Mordor:

• If you take Ithilien, Minas Morgul, and the Morannon (and possibly the Tower of Cirith Ungol), Sauron proposes a peace which gives Gondor all of Ithilien along with Minas Morgul/Ithil and Dagorlad, but hands him back the Morannon and any captured provinces in the region of Mordor proper.
• If you take Barad Dur itself, then (and I'm talking hypothetically) Mordor becomes barren again. That is to say, all provices of Mordor proper (aside from the Morannon, Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol, and Durthang) cease to exist altogether. That means that, aside from the old Gondorian fortresses (the Morannon, Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol, and Durthang), the region of Mordor becomes uninhabitable. However, that does not mean the faction should be detroyed altogether, that is to say, its northern provinces centered on Dol Guldur should remain (Sauron can be assumed to have fled back there). If Dol Guldur is also gone for some reason, then that should be it for Sauron and Mordor.

That's how I would do it, if I only knew how xP. This was always a problem for me: how can Gondor "conquer" Mordor? I mean, if you want peace with Mordor, you have to conquer all of it - and it just looks very bad to have Gondor annexing Mordor and populating it with its own people (the Numenorean city of Barad Dur?). It ruins the fun, in that you know you have to either 1) fight the same battles over and over again - or 2) bring about a state of affairs that has nothing to do with Lore and damages the feel of the game profoundly.

The game brings to life Tolkien's world of Middle Earth in an absolutely amazing way, and it always starts fun, but one gets the impression that little thought was given to how to resolve the individual conflicts the player is cast into.

[Spits32]

Perhaps something that could leave Harad in a permanently excommunicated state - or even change their religion away from Melkor - could be a solution there.

Isn't there a Baron Samedi mod for this? Change religion?

[dIRECT0R]

Of course, that's just me thinking aloud... I think a more realistic proposal would be event resolutions for the Dale-Rhun and Gondor-Harad relationships. Specifically for Rhun and Harad at the minimum. Supposing you're playing with dale and you want to conquer Erebor? Or fight the Silvan Elves? You can't because you have to handle Rhun indefinitely.

[mattttb]

To be honest though I feel as if the situation with Dale is difficult to reconcile because of the fact that this is a total war game. In total war games the goal is usually to destroy all hostile neighbours and create a small/moderate empire, and because of that being the driving force behind the game, concessions have to be made. If you think about it I don't believe that Dale would have a wish to seize control of the entire north-east of middle earth, I don't think that the High Elves would really want to dominate the lands east, south, and west of eriador, and I don't think that Rohan would really want to conquer the misty mountains and the brown lands but because of the limitations of the game these things have to be accepted.

I'm not trying to put a dampener on things, I think your idea is brilliant, I'm just saying only so much can be done within the confines of the game to satisfy the lore. With maybe the exception of Gondor and the Dwarves, I don't think that any of the good factions represented in the game would really be seeking to extend their borders (Gondor and the Dwarves would want to reclaim lands lost to goblins, orcs, and evil men). You could argue that the Silvan Elves (or the elves east of the misty mountains) would probably want to root out all evil within mirkwood and the surrounding forest regions but by the end of the third age they are pretty resigned to the fact that this is beyond them.

Long story short, still a good idea but there are always going to be inaccuracies with how nations are represented in the game.

[dIRECT0R]

To be honest though I feel as if the situation with Dale is difficult to reconcile because of the fact that this is a total war game. In total war games the goal is usually to destroy all hostile neighbours and create a small/moderate empire, and because of that being the driving force behind the game, concessions have to be made. If you think about it I don't believe that Dale would have a wish to seize control of the entire north-east of middle earth, I don't think that the High Elves would really want to dominate the lands east, south, and west of eriador, and I don't think that Rohan would really want to conquer the misty mountains and the brown lands but because of the limitations of the game these things have to be accepted.

I'm not trying to put a dampener on things, I think your idea is brilliant, I'm just saying only so much can be done within the confines of the game to satisfy the lore. With maybe the exception of Gondor and the Dwarves, I don't think that any of the good factions represented in the game would really be seeking to extend their borders (Gondor and the Dwarves would want to reclaim lands lost to goblins, orcs, and evil men). You could argue that the Silvan Elves (or the elves east of the misty mountains) would probably want to root out all evil within mirkwood and the surrounding forest regions but by the end of the third age they are pretty resigned to the fact that this is beyond them.

Long story short, still a good idea but there are always going to be inaccuracies with how nations are represented in the game.

I know, and part of the purpose of this thread is to see whether something like this would be possible at all. It would be greately beneficial to the game's campaign mechanics, and I think a couple of these sort of forced diplomatic resolutions are the last tiny straw that would make this mod a real "game" in its own right, as it were.

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

I've been thinking about how TATW could become more appealing, and I think one of its main shortcomings is the problem of the "Neverending Conflict". It becomes tiresome to continuously fight off more-or-less identical armies the AI dispatches repeatedly without end. In fact, that's all the game becomes about. It is almost impossible to conclude a lasting peace with an enemy faction with the diplomacy AI. Once you've conquered what you wanted/needed, you're given a choice of actually destroying your enemy completely (a time-consuming task in itself) or just being attacked over and over and over again.

Take Gondor for example. Does Gondor really have to conquer all of the Harad to have peace? Or all of Mordor? Shouldn't Mordor at least sue for peace after you've taken Barad Dur? And shouldn't Harad become a vassal of Gondor once its thoroughly defeated? (as was the case more than once in Lore)

In my opinion, it would an excellent addition to the game's mechanics to have events that give you the choice of achieving more-or-less permanent peace with various factions, once certain conditions are met. Here's a few more examples of what I mean:

• You're playing with Mordor and you capture Minas Tirith. You are given a choice of continuing the war, or accepting a proposed peace offer from Gondor that would move the borders to a certain point (and pacify Gondor as a defeated faction).
  
• You're playing with Gondor and you capture all of South Gondor and Umbar (or perhaps something else also, as modders see fit), and you receive an event peace offer from Harad which gives you the choice of continuing the conflict - or moving the borders to a certain point (possibly with Gondor controlling South Gondor and Umbar) and the forcing the Haradrim into a vassal relationship. Etc.

Now, I must point out that I'm no modder, and I have no concept of how potentially difficult (or impossible) such a modification might be. I just think its a good concept that would add greatly to the game's overall appeal. Players want the game to acknowledge when they really have "mastered a foe", and not expect them to just continuously fight standard-issue battles over and over again.

I Like the Idea but for Mordor it would not be right since Sauron wanted COMPLETE Control of Middle-Earth so they would never negotiated or make peace with any of the Free Peoples.

[dIRECT0R]

I Like the Idea but for Mordor it would not be right since Sauron wanted COMPLETE Control of Middle-Earth so they would never negotiated or make peace with any of the Free Peoples.

Not true. The Mouth of Sauron offered Gondor and Rohan an eeeevil peace after the victory of the Pellenor Fields. Imagine if Gondor and Rohan actually took the Morannon and Minas Morgul as well, I don't think it would be beyond Sauron to offer a peace for the next couple decades 'till he got his act back together. Sauron was, first and foremost, a very sneaky bastard (remember how he took down Numenor, how he tried to trick the Elves, etc.).

But as I said, Mordor is a special case and I'm primarily proposing events for the Harad and Rhun.

[Minas Moth]

I Like the Idea but for Mordor it would not be right since Sauron wanted COMPLETE Control of Middle-Earth so they would never negotiated or make peace with any of the Free Peoples.

Not true. The Mouth of Sauron offered Gondor and Rohan an eeeevil peace after the victory of the Pellenor Fields. Imagine if Gondor and Rohan actually took the Morannon and Minas Morgul as well, I don't think it would be beyond Sauron to offer a peace for the next couple decades 'till he got his act back together. Sauron was, first and foremost, a very sneaky bastard (remember how he took down Numenor, how he tried to trick the Elves, etc.).

But as I said, Mordor is a special case and I'm primarily proposing events for the Harad and Rhun.

in the second age, before Akallabeth (Fall of Numenor) Sauron bowed to numenorean king and was taken away to Numenor where he went from prisoner to chief advisor... so keep in mind that he would be willing to make peace or even subjugate himself if he sees it fit for his future plans...

the terms offered after Pelennor fields battle were more of a fear offer than anything else. i think so atleast