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Thread: Shogun 2: Art of War [1.0.4]

  1. #1

    Default Shogun 2: Art of War [1.0.4]

    Total War: Shogun 2 - Art of War
    Latest version: 1.0.4 - 14.April.2012

    1.0.4 is compatible with the latest patch. Also note that Art of War only alters content for the original Shogun 2 campaign.

    Download
    Art of War - Downloads - Total War Center Forums (twcenter.net)
    Do not play multiplayer with the modification activated, deactivate it first via the Start Menu shortcut.
    Upgrade instructions from previous version: Just run the installer and install as normal, it takes care of the upgrade automatically, you don't have to do anything!

    ChangeLog
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Version 1.04
    • Fixed problems related to the latest patch.
    • Flattened technology tree research time. Early technologies now take longer to research while more advanced technologies are faster to research. Also, overall the Military technology tree has received a cost reduction.
    • Reduced the likelyhood of the AI constructing stables slightly.
    • Reduced the likelyhood of the AI constructing markets slightly.
    • Increased the likelyhood of the AI constructing temples.
    • Fixed the Stealth building dojo chains names.
    • Fixed some Ninja dojo buildings not letting you recruit Kisho Ninja.
    • Fixed Geisha not being recruitable.

    Version 1.03
    • Reworked Katana, Yari and Bow Ronin units. They are now slightly more expensive than Ashigaru units, and somewhat cheaper than Samurai units but with a smaller unit size compared to Samurai units. Ronin units beat their Ashigaru counter-part units in a duel while they lose to Samurai units.
    • Ronin Training Grounds separated from the Encampment chain. It is now a stand-alone building that requires the Bushido technology, costs 2000 koku and enables recruitment of all three Ronin unit types.
    • Buffed the General Warrior tree. A General fully invested in the Warrior tree should now fight on the level of a hero unit, if not better.
    • Agents and Generals now receive three skill points per level instead of two.
    • Normalized the amount of experienced required to achieve each consecutive general/agent level.
    • Fixed several missions and incidents triggers that related to constructing buildings and researching technologies.
    • Fixed some Monk units building recruitment not being met when building the required building.
    • Tweaked CAI building construction policies slightly (less markets).
    • Fixed the installer not installing to a custom directory (if you just want to see what's in the package instead of installing it to your shogun data folder).
    • Fixed the installer not removing some files on uninstall.

    Version 1.02
    • Introduced a new unit: Naginata Ashigaru
    • Military buildings (i.e. sword dojo) now provides research bonus for Bushido arts per level (1%,2%,4%,8%).
    • Turns to become Shogun increased from 4 to 8.
    • Incorporated the Missing Siege Wall fix.
    • Castle garrisons increased slightly (by 1).
    • Castle garrison unit types changed. Can't have more than 3 different unit types as otherwise the building tooltip gets bugged (not enough space I imagine); therefore Samurai Retainers and Onna Bushi had to be removed. Considering adding these retainers to military dojo's. Feedback wanted.
    • Balance overhaul for all Ashigaru units.
    • Recruitment cost and upkeep cost re-balanced for Samurai units.
    • Created Shimazu Katana Ashigaru variant.
    • Created Long Yari, Katana, Naginata Hattori variant.
    • Created Long Yari, Naginata Ikko Ikki variant.
    • Changed Takeda mission two from research form to Cavalry Tactics. Changed reward to Yari Cavarly from Bow Cavarly.
    • Changed Hojo mission two from research strategy of attack to attack by fire.
    • Changed Oda mission way of the spear, now rewards Yari Samurai.
    • Luxurious Markets now require silk as the Encyclopedia suggested.
    • Replenishment rates bonuses lowered for buildings and technologies.
    • Fixed bug with Ikko Ikki Shinshu Temple
    • Fixed Gold Mine in Hojo Province
    • Increased Blacksmith chain building cost again to 1.0.0 values.
    • AI/Player difficulty bonuses restructured. I'll say this much; good luck with legendary
    • Increased the likelihood of the AI recruiting Ninja agents
    • Re-done much of the CAI tweaking from scratch.
    • Diplomacy attitudes adjusted slightly.
    • Fixed an issue with the Nanban Trade Port not being able to recruit ships.
    • There may be additional changes that are not documented.

    Version 1.01
    • Mission's related to technology research was broken (would never trigger reward), now fixed.
    • Cavalry units other than Light Cavalry had a building requirement ID that did not exist, therefore the units could not be recruited. Now fixed.
    • Cavalry Tactics now required to build Warhorse Stables as intended.
    • CAI tweak; tried to reduce AI Archer spam even further.
    • CAI tweak; increased the likelihood the CAI would build military Dojo's. Too much focus was put on economy buildings. Whether or not this makes the AI easier or harder to play against is anyone's guess.
    • CAI tweak; tried to make Ikko-ikki build Ronin Training Grounds as they cannot recruit regular samurai. This might still be a weakness with the mod that must be looked at further, however.
    • Reduced cost for Blacksmith chain slightly.
    • Blacksmith chain now provides +bonuses for the intended unit types (this was broken, would only apply bonus for archers).
    • Fixed a few encyclopedia errors.


    Overview

    Art of War is a complete overhaul modification to Creative Assembly's excellent Total War: Shogun 2. Without radically altering the original game Art of War aims to further improve gameplay and polish the Shogun 2 campaign. This includes new units available for recruitment, complete overhaul of unit balance, new buildings and improved economy balance, new technologies and updated and improved encyclopedia files. Additionally Art of War puts tremendous focus on delivering a challenging campaign experience for the player. Legendary difficulty now truly bears the weight of the word.



    • Easy to install - Available as a complete installer, which when uninstalled leaves no trace and restores your game to its pre-installed state.
    • Stays true to the original game - The primary focus is placed upon improving and polishing the original Shogun campaign instead of radically altering it.
    • Balance overhaul - Units, buildings, technologies and the Campaign AI (CAI) have been tweaked and balanced to provide a challenging experience for the player.
    • New content - The modification introduces new units available for recruitment, new buildings and new technologies.
    • Updated and improved Encyclopedia - All changes to units, buildings and technologies have been updated and is reflected in the encyclopedia (English only).

    Extended Feature List

    New Units:

    New Buildings:

    New Technologies

    Visual Changes
    • Yari Ashigaru is now equipped with the short (cheap-looking) yari.
    • Yari Samurai is now equipped with the trident (expensive-looking) yari.
    • Yari Ashigaru and Long Yari Ashigaru now always fights with their yari and not with their katana sidearm.
    • The General's Bodyguards no longer wear the Horo on their backs.
    • The General now wears a Horo instead. This serves two purposes; 1. Looks better and 2. Enables easy identification of your general.

    Main Balance Concepts
    • Land units no longer receive experience bonuses (veterancy) from buildings and technologies. All unit experience must now be earned on the battlefield.
    • Rock-Paper-Scissors counter system remains, but has been softened. All unit classes have their place.
    • Yari Ashigaru are well-rounded and cheap fighters, they have a decent charge and a small bonus versus cavalry but will lose to Katana Ashigaru in a prolonged melee.
    • Long Yari Ashigaru are poor melee fighters (long cumbersome pike) but has a large bonus versus cavalry. Their long yari also gives them a fearsome charge.
    • Katana Ashigaru has a virtually non-existent charge but excel in melee combat versus Yari units. (Stats wise an equal-stat Katana unit will easily beat another equal-stat Yari unit due to hidden bonuses or something to do with their attack animations).
    • Yari, Long Yari, Bow and Katana Ashigaru can be recruited from all castles.
    • Ashigaru units get reduced upgrades from buildings and technologies compared to their Samurai counterparts. This prevents Ashigaru becoming stronger and stronger relative to Samurai in the late game. In the vanilla game there was virtually no point in recruiting quality units in the mid to late game. Ashigaru units are still useful however, especially if mixed with quality units.
    • Economy buildings have been changed, it should no longer be a disadvantage to upgrade the Market chain in terms of growth. There are two building paths you can take with the Market chain. Immediate access to increased wealth and the ability to recruit Metsuke agents (Rice Trader) or focus on town growth both local and across all of your provinces (Rice Exchange).
    • Castle home regions no longer start with an additional recruitment slot. Castle upgrades now provide additional recruitment points in a linear fashion.
    • Starting regions no longer start with a default building. You can now always choose your first building to construct without having to disassemble the one already built by default.
    • Prestige gain (Realm Divide) has been slightly changed. You now have a bit more "time" before Realm Divide hits (there's no timer, it depends no prestige level and prestige will be gained and lost by conquering provinces, famous battles, improving infrastructure and daimyo honour).

      There are many, many changes that will not be documented here. All unit, building and technology changes can be viewed in the encyclopedia, however.

    Difficulty Levels
    • Easy difficulty is now the baseline difficulty where neither the AI nor the player has any economic bonuses. For normal and above the AI gets increased levels of economic bonuses.
    • Note that on Very Hard and Legendary the AI gets an additional free recruitment slot for both land and naval recruitment (same as vanilla really).

    Campaign AI
    • Fine tuned AI recruitment and building construction policies for better amry compositions *work in progress*
    • Fine tuned the AI technology research choices. *work in progress*
    • Reduced aspects of the CAI that enables it to virtually cheat. The goal is to eliminate AI cheating and simply scale up the AI bonuses instead. *work in progress*

    Future Plans

    Development priority is as follows:

    1. Unit stats and cost/upkeep balance.
    2. Building stats and cost balance.
    3. Technology stats and research time balance.
    4. Campaign AI improvements.
    5. New units.
    6. New buildings.
    7. New technologies.
    8. Making additional clans playable.
    Feedback

    All user feedback is welcome! If you feel the mod is great, awesome! If you feel it bloody stinks for whatever reason, that's fine. You are free to speak your mind here.

    Unit, building and technology balance suggestions are encouraged. However, if you as an example feel a certain unit is overpowered or underpowered, please provide custom battle examples that can be reproduced and add some basic mathematical calculations to support your arguments. Posts that rely on the "I feel" argument without any real data to back it up won't be taken very seriously.

    Last edited by AveiMil; February 12, 2021 at 04:41 PM. Reason: Added File Download Link

  2. #2

    Default Re: Art of War

    Credits

    Thanks to

    Radious
    for letting me use his
    Naginata Ashigaru unit card graphics.
    daniu for his continued effort and great work developing Pack File Manager.
    Yarkis for helping me improve AoW by advancing my understanding of S2 modding both directly and indirectly by looking at this excellent work.

    Special thanks to all beta testers whom helped improve AoW:

    wealthmonger
    Drtad
    Lazarus
    Last edited by AveiMil; February 28, 2012 at 05:16 AM. Reason: Adding Credits

  3. #3

    Default Re: Art of War

    Reserved #2

  4. #4

    Default Re: Art of War

    Reserved #3

  5. #5

    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Few things on historical accuracy and such, I don't think ashigaru would be trained as a unit only with a katana, kogatana, or any other sword.
    Ronin means wandering person, i.e. a samurai without a master, so I don't know how you'd build a training ground for them, and if you did... they wouldn't really be master-less then. Too bad a general can't just recruit mercenaries on the campaign map, that'd make more since for ronin.

    I understand the horo thing, but not sure if its historically correct. I do like the idea of yari ashigaru not switching to their sword.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Quote Originally Posted by rekishiotaku View Post
    Few things on historical accuracy and such, I don't think ashigaru would be trained as a unit only with a katana, kogatana, or any other sword.
    I completely accept that, just like there would likely not be any pure Katana or Bow Samurai units However, this adds to the game play experience. If all units are the same it reduces your tactical options in a battle; it becomes a bit bland. For me game play always trumps historical accuracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by rekishiotaku View Post
    Ronin means wandering person, i.e. a samurai without a master, so I don't know how you'd build a training ground for them, and if you did... they wouldn't really be master-less then. Too bad a general can't just recruit mercenaries on the campaign map, that'd make more since for ronin.
    The idea is you'll build a training ground that is free to use for wandering samurai, that way you'll attract them and make it easier to recruit them into your army. It's not perfectly logical but works well enough. I have not devoted much time on building names and descriptions, so many other things that needed my attention in order for me to actually create the mod.

    If it would be possible to have ronin recruitable directly to your general on the campaign map that would be cool. However I don't think that's possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by rekishiotaku View Post
    I understand the horo thing, but not sure if its historically correct. I do like the idea of yari ashigaru not switching to their sword.
    I accept it might not be historically correct, honestly I'm not very concerned with that as it definitively looks better and serves a great purpose in terms of enabling you to identify your general unit. The biggest problem with the horo in its vanilla form is it looks too much like an inflated balloon, it's very uniform and with the Body Guard in formation they look more like honey ants. Basically graphical limitations (the way the horo is presented) is the main problem with the vanilla in my honest opinion.

    Thanks for posting mate!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Perhaps I'll take a shot at this competition of yours if I can find enough time. Seems interesting.

    Just asking, which version of Fots is the prize? Or can we choose?
    Under the patronage of John I Tzimisces

  8. #8

    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Drtad View Post
    Perhaps I'll take a shot at this competition of yours if I can find enough time. Seems interesting.

    Just asking, which version of Fots is the prize? Or can we choose?
    The one on Steam

  9. #9
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    You may employ ronin by building a special building just like Yarkis (TROM 3) did with the Merchant District. That would allow you to recruit them and put them into units.
    Can't stress enough the importance of 2 major factors missing from all the other S2 mods:

    1) Speed is essential in offensive campaign.
    Armies of the Warring States in China, could travel 30 li per day under NORMAL circumstances (meaning with forced march they would get to 50 li).
    Transposed in S2 and using Google Earth, I converted this ancient measure into Kms.

    The distance to be covered between Kagoshima (Satsuma) and Kumamoto (Higo) is 11 days. Match that with the current S2 marching speed and you'll see we're about 9 times slower than real.
    At this point, in order to realize this, it might be worth moving to a month-month turnation instead of a seasonal one... if that is possible of course.

    2) Sengoku Jidai saw the rise of the Ashigaru class.
    I find it difficult to digest in all the mods around that the unit sizes are comparable (in Radious we have 150 Ashi against 120 Samurai). The clan specific recruitment could come handy though I don't like unit caps at least a size ratio of 1/3 should do. I used to have a table based on historical research with an astounding result of the Hojo right like the Oda using hordes of Ashigaru (I tried to retrieve this study which was posted here on TWC somewhere, I reposted it on S2r+ but can't find it... and I lost my HD last month so I lost all my links...).

    This clan specific recruitment system could very well be done via unit size. Again, using higher tech/building tiers could also disallow recruitment and replenishment of now "old" units to simulate the evolution of the army throughout the Sengoku period.
    To make big steps you need small multiple steps... the unit ratio of 1/3 means strong samurai but few (50/150). The problem lies in making the AI understand how to build balanced armies then.

    Just my very first 5c post. All other ideas seem fine but these 2 seemed to be missing.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Quote Originally Posted by [G-Shock] View Post
    1) Speed is essential in offensive campaign.
    Armies of the Warring States in China, could travel 30 li per day under NORMAL circumstances (meaning with forced march they would get to 50 li).
    Transposed in S2 and using Google Earth, I converted this ancient measure into Kms.

    The distance to be covered between Kagoshima (Satsuma) and Kumamoto (Higo) is 11 days. Match that with the current S2 marching speed and you'll see we're about 9 times slower than real.
    At this point, in order to realize this, it might be worth moving to a month-month turnation instead of a seasonal one... if that is possible of course.
    Changing to a month-month turnation is probably not something I'm looking to do. There's so much connected with that and it would change the game dramatically.

    I'm not very concerned with the fact that movement speed might be 9 times slower than real-life to be honest as realistic accuracy is not my prime objective. However, I have considered increasing army movement points on the campaign map already and it's quite possible this would improve game play. Whether or not this should be accomplished by increasing movement points for upgraded roads or just giving individuality units increased movement points independently of roads I'm not sure, perhaps both.

    We have to tread carefully here, however, as it could also easily completely break (or radically change the game). Food for thought, no doubt though.

    Also, remember in AoW there are four military tech's that increase campaign movement speed by 10% instead of just 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by [G-Shock] View Post
    2) Sengoku Jidai saw the rise of the Ashigaru class.
    I find it difficult to digest in all the mods around that the unit sizes are comparable (in Radious we have 150 Ashi against 120 Samurai). The clan specific recruitment could come handy though I don't like unit caps at least a size ratio of 1/3 should do. I used to have a table based on historical research with an astounding result of the Hojo right like the Oda using hordes of Ashigaru (I tried to retrieve this study which was posted here on TWC somewhere, I reposted it on S2r+ but can't find it... and I lost my HD last month so I lost all my links...).

    This clan specific recruitment system could very well be done via unit size. Again, using higher tech/building tiers could also disallow recruitment and replenishment of now "old" units to simulate the evolution of the army throughout the Sengoku period.
    To make big steps you need small multiple steps... the unit ratio of 1/3 means strong samurai but few (50/150). The problem lies in making the AI understand how to build balanced armies then.

    Just my very first 5c post. All other ideas seem fine but these 2 seemed to be missing.
    My ability of comprehension is probably very poor, but I'm struggling to understand what you are actually suggesting here. I don't quite understand your line of thought.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Just a few things I noticed continuing my Chosokabe campaign... I researched Way of the Bow for the objective where it gives you a free bow samurai, but the objective never fulfilled for some reason. Nevermind just saw that it was fixed... is this save game compatible? :O
    Under the patronage of John I Tzimisces

  12. #12
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    If you strive to build a new mod on a failing game concept while you can't change the game you can solve the problem with a mod. If you don't plan to solve the problem with the mod then you'll end up building another (yet again) mod which keeps giving some rather different things to the same FAILING game concept.

    If you consider it takes 11 days to reach Higo from Satsuma WITHOUT roads or technology improvements, either you move to month-month turnation OR the problem will remain there.
    Changing to month to month turns would make this problem solved AND give the community a UNIQUE mod. That's for a start.

    As of the army composition and recruitment, there's a historical study whose link I lost but might retrieve if interested (need to search in some beta boards) that would give % of ashigaru units of each separate clan during the sengoku jidai.
    If the clan pools are adapted to this system, Hojo and Oda would have plenty of troopers from their native provinces and employing an AOR system in the conquered provinces (much like TROM3' system) we could have realistic armies in a what if environment. That would be historical, grand and again, unique.

    Really there's already a hundred of mods which more or less do the same to the game. I think you might want to do something new and radical. These are issues that S2r+ only scathed lightly.

  13. #13
    Kaunitz's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Basically I'd agree with G-shock IF you wanted to create one of the many mods that are said to be realistic. But apparently that's not your claim, which is also fine.

    Speaking of game-concepts, I wonder in what ways a decreased movement rate would actually alter the game? Total War games would still remain extremely weak in terms of game mechanics on the operational level (for good games set on the operational level, see ageod's games). A decreased movement rate means that the time-intervals at which players can intervene get shorter. What are the consequences of that? Probably it will be more dangerous to let your army operate far away from your home territories (because it needs more turns to get back in case of emergency)? And, overall, I think it will become more difficult to surprise your enemy. I should be easier (at least for the player, certainly not for the AI) to avoid combat (depending on the Fog of War settings). So, even though I would also set the game to 24 turns per year if I were to create a realism-mod, I can't see any really big "game-concept"-consequences to be expected of slower campaign movement.

    In order not to hijack this thread, I think that this hodge-podge topic would be a more adequate place to discuss this issue: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...511686&page=10
    Last edited by Kaunitz; February 05, 2012 at 04:07 AM.
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
    - a modding project for a better representation of XVIIIth century warfare -

  14. #14

    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Quote Originally Posted by [G-Shock] View Post
    If you strive to build a new mod on a failing game concept while you can't change the game you can solve the problem with a mod. If you don't plan to solve the problem with the mod then you'll end up building another (yet again) mod which keeps giving some rather different things to the same FAILING game concept.
    I'm not sure I see this as a failing game concept the same way as you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by [G-Shock] View Post
    If you consider it takes 11 days to reach Higo from Satsuma WITHOUT roads or technology improvements, either you move to month-month turnation OR the problem will remain there.
    Changing to month to month turns would make this problem solved AND give the community a UNIQUE mod. That's for a start.
    Arguments rooted in realism will not resonate too well with me. Realistic accuracy is only valid to me when it works in symbiosis with improved game play. I can easily suspend my disbelief when it comes to army movement speed on the campaign map.

    Changing to monthly turns would mean that the Short Campaign, set to finish within 1575 would involved THREE times as many turns. That is a radical change that opens up for all kinds of potential (unforeseen) problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by [G-Shock] View Post
    As of the army composition and recruitment, there's a historical study whose link I lost but might retrieve if interested (need to search in some beta boards) that would give % of ashigaru units of each separate clan during the sengoku jidai.
    If the clan pools are adapted to this system, Hojo and Oda would have plenty of troopers from their native provinces and employing an AOR system in the conquered provinces (much like TROM3' system) we could have realistic armies in a what if environment. That would be historical, grand and again, unique.

    Really there's already a hundred of mods which more or less do the same to the game. I think you might want to do something new and radical. These are issues that S2r+ only scathed lightly.
    Give % of ashigaru units? What does that mean?

    I'm not a big fan of an AOR system either as it unnecessarily limits the player and complicates the game without really adding anything in terms of game play value. I'm sure it is accurate in terms of realism, but again this mod's primary objective is to improve game play and not turn into another realism mod (which there are so many of).

    I feel my mod concept is already unique enough, there aren't any others that have the same design concepts as far as I can tell. If there were I would be playing them from day one

  15. #15
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaunitz
    And, overall, I think it will become more difficult to surprise your enemy. I should be easier (at least for the player, certainly not for the AI) to avoid combat (depending on the Fog of War settings)
    Exactly the FOW is critically exaggerated in this game. The fact you can move so far in this idea doesn't mean you should. You'd desperately need info on the bordering provinces and the ninja should be the only one to see them. Do mind you can conquer the bordering province relatively easily and then be crushed by an army that is 3 provinces away and undetected with this system.



    Quote Originally Posted by AveiMil
    I'm not sure I see this as a failing game concept the same way as you do.
    How else would you judge an engine which was modded on different historical scenarios (from STW to S2 passing through Rome, Napoleon, etc) but where the only real challenge the player gets is by handicaps? In S2 we have seen the quintessence of stupidity via Realm Divide event.
    What about the fact you can transport 5000 men with a single 50-man ship which, btw, is also capable of spotting enemy armies from the sea (satellites' view probably hooked to the C3 section of the ship).


    Quote Originally Posted by AveiMil View Post
    Arguments rooted in realism will not resonate too well with me. Realistic accuracy is only valid to me when it works in symbiosis with improved game play. I can easily suspend my disbelief when it comes to army movement speed on the campaign map.
    Again, how else would you improve gameplay if there are already 50 mods which ALL fail to recreate the real challenges of warfare (supplies, reinforcements, lack of funds, etc)?
    Would you build a new mod, on the same old FAILING concepts which recreates a different recruitment, different bonuses and so on? And to what avail? Haven't we got enough already?
    CA created a game for kids with nice animations, improved graphics over time but never wanted to do hard core simulation of this game. You buy troops like you were at the supermarket. You destroy 5000 men and your enemy is there with 5000 more next year, enemy having ONE total province... in truth he'd be enlisting 2 yr old kids due to lack of population after having lost the grandfathers, fathers and children.

    Look at this:
    Trom recreates AOR (be advised I am the inventor of AOR/ZOR in RTW) but has fictional armies (90% or more composed of Samurai), it moves slower than a turtle on a wheelchair (despite doubling the navy speeds, Columbus by the time you arrive from Kyushu to Honshu has arrived from Portugal to India crossing Cape Horn, docking at San Fran and having a holiday in Melbourne). By the time your mangonels reach the front line, the war in Vietnam will be over.

    S2r+ has a totally inept AI (idle most of the time), a very good battle system and a very fast movement rate but the armies are capped and this effort doesn't reproduce historicity. Furthenmore, the very strict building/unit process disallows one unit and allows another without logics. You can produce sword ashi only where blacksmith is present for example. You conquer one province and start building to have new units but you have no idea if a building will produce anything because that unit requires some resource or other building which is missing. On the other hand, though the autodisband is very high, a depleted unit will take years to replenish. That is one of the ways to slow down offensive campaigning.

    Radious and DMS are games for kids.
    Only the space marines and goblins are missing from their armies to be perfect but in both cases the diplomatic system works. I am particularly thrilled by DMS. With so many bonuses involved the units fight to the death and you can with a general hold 800 men until your reinforcements arrive. 800 spears vs the general alone and in woods.

    Changing to monthly turns would mean that the Short Campaign, set to finish within 1575 would involved THREE times as many turns. That is a radical change that opens up for all kinds of potential (unforeseen) problems.
    Isn't it the same when you play 500 campaigns that are too easy to win or too hard to win? Should the goals be achieved, it's better imo to play 1 very long but challenging campaign where you also get defeated and risk of being utterly eliminated than play the same crap over and over again (all you need to change the way you play but still win is to change the mod). I agree with you there's no guarantee of success but I'd rather strive to BUILD a new system from scratch than build a new block over a FAILING system such as the vanilla S2.
    Just for the records, I've never had to play a FULL TIME campaign, always won or lost much sooner than that. Lost against AI cheating of course.

    Give % of ashigaru units? What does that mean?
    For the moment and until I find that link we'll have to think on figures.
    Imagine the Hojo Ashigaru % being 75% of the total army composition. You'd be going to build a unit pool where three quarters of the troops are ashigaru, equipped with all kinds of weapons of course and only one quarter is samurai.
    The difference being samurai are instantly recruited at low cost and very low upkeep but not only are they 1/4 in total numbers in the pool but ALSO much less numerous in unit size (30 yari sam compared to 150 yari ashi).
    Naturally the ashi are more expensive to recruit and upkeep. Their combat statistics are vastly inferior to the samurai but still win on numbers. Ideally the sam being shock troops (higher morale and higher combat stats) would kill a lot and slaughter them only to be mowed down by the horde. ch'i vs cheng.
    Provided you stick to your statement on only allowing xp increases via battle (which is a concept I supported in all mods but lost due to the high number of children playing this game who think they buy troops at the supermarket) and rise the autodisband % on the battle losses, the armies would be very realistic. How to balance losses and replacements is as important as how to balance the combat stats.

    Inserting the ZOR means when Hojo is eliminated, for example by Takeda (who has a different ashi/sam ratio), Takeda would access the ENTIRE pool of Hojo, which means take Trom3 system but instead of using it on the home samurai unit of the eliminated clan like he does, use it on the entire ashi pool. We also need the ronin to be recruitable of course and that takes into account the samurai of the eliminated faction who would never join the new conquerors' official lines. ZOR means you need different buildings to recruit different ronin units, each for the eliminated faction and each only recruiting that faction's ronins in that faction's original lands.

    I'm not a big fan of an AOR system either as it unnecessarily limits the player and complicates the game without really adding anything in terms of game play value. I'm sure it is accurate in terms of realism, but again this mod's primary objective is to improve game play and not turn into another realism mod (which there are so many of).
    I don't see how you may revive a dead horse but it's your mod, go ahead, what else can I say.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaunitz View Post
    Speaking of game-concepts, I wonder in what ways a decreased movement rate would actually alter the game? Total War games would still remain extremely weak in terms of game mechanics on the operational level (for good games set on the operational level, see ageod's games). A decreased movement rate means that the time-intervals at which players can intervene get shorter. What are the consequences of that? Probably it will be more dangerous to let your army operate far away from your home territories (because it needs more turns to get back in case of emergency)? And, overall, I think it will become more difficult to surprise your enemy. I should be easier (at least for the player, certainly not for the AI) to avoid combat (depending on the Fog of War settings). So, even though I would also set the game to 24 turns per year if I were to create a realism-mod, I can't see any really big "game-concept"-consequences to be expected of slower campaign movement.
    Slower movement rate on the campaign map would in my mind gimp the AI even further. A decreased movement rate will mean that the human player would find it harder to react towards an unknown attacking force. However after mid-game where you basically have agents out and about scouting, you'll see AI attacks coming from far away giving you ample time to either recruit new units or move your armies into position. Not to mention it would make campaigns like the Date campaign painfully slow and boring.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Figured I would post here instead of expanding on an already large post in the competition thread. I'm really loving this mod. The new tech tree is excellent, especially for a V1 release. The building chains are extremely thought out and I already foresee me utilizing several of the new building trees. The new Ashigaru go well - not game breakers and not useless. I also especially like that the new tech tree changes unit stats, not experience levels. I'm still in the early stages of my campaign, but it looks like a promising game experience. Keep u pthe excellent work.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Ah G-Shock, I understand now that you are looking to play a war simulation while I am looking to play a war based game. From your perspective I understand how you might consider much of the game mechanics in play in Shogun 2 as a failure, however that is not my view. I don't play games like these to simulate reality, I play because I enjoy making better strategic decisions than my opponents and learning from my mistakes (which in the single player campaign is the AI and the AI by nature is stupid which means you have to handicap the human player and see how he works around it).

    In my first short legendary campaign I spent roughly 20-30 minutes on average on every single turn. I do not want to prolong this with three times the turns. I'd rather keep it to a low amount of turns and force the player to very carefully consider all the strategic decisions that is presented every single turn (tech choices, building choices, recruitment choices, trade choices, army movement and general diplomacy.) My only great disappointing was that I won the campaign, on my first try, partially because of flawed game design (ashigaru being completely over powered for one). I was sincerely hoping to be wiped off the floor until I properly understood the game.

    My all time favorite single player game was Civilization IV with Warlords + BtS and a few mod improvements. That game offers to this day the best single player game experience in my opinion. The higher difficulties are really difficult and requires considerable understanding of the game and presents a lot of strategic considerations. Working your way up through the difficulty settings and learning the game was immense fun. I failed so many immortal games that when I finally succeed the sense of achievement was great.

    I respect that a lot of people want to simulate a war based reality, however in my opinion expecting that from a game like the Total War series sounds like an exercise in frustration

  19. #19
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Quote Originally Posted by AveiMil View Post
    I respect that a lot of people want to simulate a war based reality, however in my opinion expecting that from a game like the Total War series sounds like an exercise in frustration
    Not necessarily, thanks to modding.
    It is at all possible to design a system where you don't see the enemy but the AI sees you where you are weak and can strike from very far away. Now that is challenging and without real cheating. CA built the "base" imo, then it's up to you guys to go where you want to go.
    I think the system is a failure in vanilla and that, so far at least, the modders have just tried to improve a thing or two without bringing the house down. As far as I am concerned, I am deeply convinced that tearing the house down and rebuilding the system from the simulation point of view, granted that even a hard core game is still just a game (and that's where the war based fun comes out of), is the way to go.
    Whatever you do in your mod, if you don't change the base and restart from zero, you'll still have the one way to go: wait for the AI to siege, lose stupid, attack the province (now undefended) it came from and beat the garrison.
    The only choice here is to make a stronger garrison (an army-like garrison such as in DMS, Radious and TROM3) which will eventually fall either (most likely) to autoresolve or to stupid defense tactics (you can pin quite easily at the battlements most of its garrison and sneak to the Tenshu flag if you are patient enough with manouvering).

    Point is, if you don't see, if your cities riot, even with a 1-month turn where you could reach Buzen from Satsuma in a SINGLE turn, your army would melt away and there's no way to tell what's lying in wait there or in any of the neighboring provinces (i.e. as far as Aki).

    No point in playing COD or BF. Thousands of clones (CS, DoD, AAO, etc) but now, playing ArmA2 is something!
    Hey, it's your mod. Whatever you decide to do is ok with me but I'd give it a shot because nobody tried yet.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Shogun 2: Art of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    Figured I would post here instead of expanding on an already large post in the competition thread. I'm really loving this mod. The new tech tree is excellent, especially for a V1 release. The building chains are extremely thought out and I already foresee me utilizing several of the new building trees. The new Ashigaru go well - not game breakers and not useless. I also especially like that the new tech tree changes unit stats, not experience levels. I'm still in the early stages of my campaign, but it looks like a promising game experience. Keep u pthe excellent work.
    That's great to hear. Thank you!

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