Pushing democracy

[Denny Crane!]

I firmly believe that democratic solutions are acheived when a population is ready for it. Education is the key, without educated informed opinion democracy is an unrealistic option.

Bit of a short thread starter but I thought it might stimulate some discussion.


Does anyone think democracy can be "forced"?

Does anyone have examples where a stable democracy has been formed by force, perhaps during the cold war.

Or examples where stable (if not even democratic) governments have evolved through constructive social movements by an enlightened populace.

What are the grass roots causes of instability in democracy?

How stable are our governments in relation to above examples (if we experienced similar variables)?

Peter

[Logue]

I dont think you can force democracy on a country when it isnt ready for it, look at germany after the first world war. One problem i have with the current system of democracy is that were have a choice of people who want to be in power, which i think people who activley seak power are dangerous. Plus we are electing these people to make our big decisions for us when clearly in recent years not alot of people wanted to invade iraq yet it happened. I'd rather we have a true democracy, no politicians just people voting although this has problems also.

[Fenris]

Forced democracy is an oxymoron.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Forced democracy cannot work, in theory. But, hasn't it worked in the past? One only has to look at Russian history.

[Denny Crane!]

Forced democracy cannot work, in theory. But, hasn't it worked in the past? One only has to look at Russian history.

Please elaborate.

Peter

[Turnus]

Forced democracy cannot work, in theory. But, hasn't it worked in the past? One only has to look at Russian history.

Or perhaps certain states of the Delian League?

[Bwaho]

Does anyone think democracy can be "forced"?

Does anyone have examples where a stable democracy has been formed by force

Japan after WW2

[Ahlerich]

Forced democracy cannot work, in theory. But, hasn't it worked in the past? One only has to look at Russian history.

welld emocracy has not ben forced upon the SU..the change came from within

[Tom Paine]

Yes, and it hasn't really worked. It came from within too fast and with too little education about the matter, too little too late really.

[Erik]

Democracy can only work when the people are educated and informed enough to understand what they are voting for.

I think even in Western countries less than 50% of the people who are allowed to vote are capable of making a somewhat educated decision.
The rest just votes who most of their friends/family vote for, or who had the nicest looking TV add.

57% of Afghan adults are illetarte.
And hardly anybody owns a radio or TV.
How the HELL are they supposed to make an educated decission on who to vote for?
I think it's increadiby naive of the west to think they could bring democracy to Afghanistan.

Iraq is a different matter of course.
The Iraqi people are well educated, even the women.
So I think Iraq at least has the capacity to become a finctioning democracy.
But having the capacity isn't the same as actually becomming one, you need other things too, like stability, before it can actually work.
In any case I think the Iraqi people should decide how democratic they want their country to be.
You can't force them to be democratic if they don't want to, and maybe they wil prefer a strong leader who provides them with more stability and security over the right to vote.

PS: how well educated were the Japanese people in 1945?
I know they are extremely well educated today, so am I right to assume they were also well educated back then?

[sephodwyrm]

Education standards in Japan was pretty high. They used to a constitutional monarchy with limited elections before the entire country was hijacked by militarists, so its like a return to the more peaceful past I guess...(relative to 1937-1945 of course).

[IamthePope]

Does anyone have examples where a stable democracy has been formed by force, perhaps during the cold war.

India anyone? It's the largest democracy in the world, and one of the most successful.

In any case I think the Iraqi people should decide how democratic they want their country to be.
You can't force them to be democratic if they don't want to, and maybe they wil prefer a strong leader who provides them with more stability and security over the right to vote.

I beleive that the enthusiastic turnout to the first palimentary election under threat of attack has more than proved their desire for democracy. But whether they will end opt for a strong leader is up in the air.

[Erik]

I beleive that the enthusiastic turnout to the first palimentary election under threat of attack has more than proved their desire for democracy.

But they mainly voted along sectarian lines.
So I suspect their biggest motivation was to get their sect "on top".
Only the Shia and Kurds voted in large numbers because they knew the Sunni's were outnumbered and would not play any significant role in parliament.
The Sunni's were a lot less enthousiastic about those elections.

[Harlanite]

India anyone? It's the largest democracy in the world, and one of the most successful.

India was forced into becoming a democracy? What are you talking about?

[IamthePope]

India was forced into becoming a democracy? What are you talking about?

But hasn't it been successful. The poster of the thread asked for examples of forced democracy being successful.

The method by which other nations choose their leadership is the product of generations of history.

But as wester civ, and western law spread throughout the world, is it not reasonable that western methods of government will also spread. If a culture chooses to emulate western culture, they also choose to emultate western goverment. whether or not they have a history of democractive government seems irrelavent if they make this choice.

[Tiwaz]

But hasn't it been successful. The poster of the thread asked for examples of forced democracy being successful.



But as wester civ, and western law spread throughout the world, is it not reasonable that western methods of government will also spread. If a culture chooses to emulate western culture, they also choose to emultate western goverment. whether or not they have a history of democractive government seems irrelavent if they make this choice.

And we have been able to point out that forcing democracy into society which has not created representative system on it's own has rather consistently.... Failed!

As for emulation of culture. You forget that eating in McDonalds and wearing Gucci is FAR from replacing traditional structures of society. Nations can choose to embrace some aspects of western society but that does not mean they choose to embrace all of them. And history of democratic goverment is very relevant. People have to have created system out of their own ideals. After this it can be possible to build on this foundation even by force as we see with Japan. Ultimately democratic system has to be developed by nation itself.

[Denny Crane!]

But hasn't it been successful. The poster of the thread asked for examples of forced democracy being successful.



But as wester civ, and western law spread throughout the world, is it not reasonable that western methods of government will also spread. If a culture chooses to emulate western culture, they also choose to emultate western goverment. whether or not they have a history of democractive government seems irrelavent if they make this choice.

You need to look into the history of it a bit more.

Key points:

• sepoy rebellion of 1857
  civil disobedience between 1918 and 1922
  The role of Ghandi and the national congress
  the declaration of independance in 1930 pwarna suraj
  Quit india movement of 1942 and the military revolt against British rule

Five years later it was made independant. Sure of course that was a forced democracy

Peter

[Lee1026]

India anyone? It's the largest democracy in the world, and one of the most successful.

Successful? Is this the same India from Planet Earth that I am thinking of? They have a per capita GDP(PPP) of 3400. I was just having a discussion about whether it is possible to live on 15000 a year. They are most certain not sussessful.

[IamthePope]

Successful? Is this the same India from Planet Earth that I am thinking of? They have a per capita GDP(PPP) of 3400. I was just having a discussion about whether it is possible to live on 15000 a year. They are most certain not sussessful.

Successful as a democracy, not as an economy (though I hear theirs isn't too bad). India has retained a stable democracy since the end of British Imperial control. I judge a democracy by its stability and longevity. In those categories India has been successful.

[GeneralLee]

I firmly believe that democratic solutions are acheived when a population is ready for it. Education is the key, without educated informed opinion democracy is an unrealistic option.

Bit of a short thread starter but I thought it might stimulate some discussion.


Does anyone think democracy can be "forced"?

Does anyone have examples where a stable democracy has been formed by force, perhaps during the cold war.

Or examples where stable (if not even democratic) governments have evolved through constructive social movements by an enlightened populace.

What are the grass roots causes of instability in democracy?

How stable are our governments in relation to above examples (if we experienced similar variables)?

Peter

Several stable democracies have been formed quickly as a result of war or other sorts of civil strife. For example the first democracy of Athens was formed after several rebellions against an oligarchy then a dictatorship. The republic of rome was formed after a rebellion against an etruscan king. Several swiss city states formed democracies during the various wars between HRE and the french. The american democracy was formed during the revolutionary war. Both German and japanese democracies were enforced after WWII and are both still around.

Yes it is better to form a democracy in peaceful social change but war is a tremendous catalyst for social change. It is just as possible with an uneducated populace for example athens and rome at the time were not the cultural meccas they are rememberd for, and your american colonists were not exactly the cream of english society (convicts and religous fanatics in abundance).