So many rebels

[Farwest]

I love the concept of this mod, therefore I played BC 1.0 for a while. But there was so many rebels to expand my Great Seljuks to its borders again. I get bored killing and destroying rebels again and again without encountering any real faction about 20-30 hours of play. Then, I quited the BC to play.
In the 2.3, there is still this issue.

In history, The Seljuks of Rum seperated from Great Seljuks due to seperation of the family; but they nearly always were neighbours. But in the game, you can not reach from one of them, to another very easily; you should take lots of rebel cities between these two kingdom.

Kharezmians and Seljuks had blood feud in the history; but in the game, you are meeting them after taking lots of cities again. At least, Kharezmians should have more cities to the south.

In brief, I want to play the Broken Crescent with having less Rebel cities; kingdoms are more close to each other with their borders; as a result, having more action/diplomacy/and strategy.

Make the kingdoms stronger and larger. The player can decide the fate of his kingdoms with his own talent on battlefield and with strategy.

[Harith]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=458494

the above link has more unit per slot and gives the great seljuks more territories.... look into it and see if u like it. If u dont... look into the submod forum where there is plenty of modifications that might suit u.

[wudang_clown]

Action of Broken Crescent starts in 1174.

In that year Khwarezmshah Tekish didn't have any feuds with Seljuks at that time, because he was busy maneouvering and fighting against Kara Khitay, Ghurids and his own brother, Sultan Shah, in northern Khurasan and Transoxiana.

Khwarezmian state did not border Iraq then, and it can't consist of more provinces to the south, because closest one, Merv, was under control of Sultan Shah. It wasn't before 1190's, I think, that Tekish reached Iraq, demanding submission from Eldiguzids and last Seljuk sultan in the East, Toghril III bin Arslan.

As for neighbourhood of the Great Seljuks and the Seljuks or Rum - that's not true as well. There were several amirates between two states and most importantly, there were Eldiguzids and Zengids there.

If you want to see more accurate situation, then you'll have to wait for 2.4, which will consist of at least two additional factions - Atabegs of Azerbaijan and Zengids.

[Harith]

Action of Broken Crescent starts in 1174.

In that year Khwarezmshah Tekish didn't have any feuds with Seljuks at that time, because he was busy maneouvering and fighting against Kara Khitay, Ghurids and his own brother, Sultan Shah, in northern Khurasan and Transoxiana.

Khwarezmian state did not border Iraq then, and it can't consist of more provinces to the south, because closest one, Merv, was under control of Sultan Shah. It wasn't before 1190's, I think, that Tekish reached Iraq, demanding submission from Eldiguzids and last Seljuk sultan in the East, Toghril III bin Arslan.

As for neighbourhood of the Great Seljuks and the Seljuks or Rum - that's not true as well. There were several amirates between two states and most importantly, there were Eldiguzids and Zengids there.

If you want to see more accurate situation, then you'll have to wait for 2.4, which will consist of at least two additional factions - Atabegs of Azerbaijan and Zengids.

cool new factions... I guess zengids will rule the caliphate from mosul now... unless their roster sucks... in which I will trade them with the ayyubids

[nein]

some factions start with too many expansion options... rebel gobbling does get old fast. 2.4 sounds interesting, I like the idea of new factions

[Farwest]

@wudang_clown,

What my objection is, there is a wide area which does not contain any faction or faction influence till lots of game turns. That kind of wide unmanaged area is very unhistorical. If somewhere have some management vacancy, another power always filled that authority space. There can be Rebel cities, like Alamut in Daylam or some other places which can be targets for the spreading kingdoms; but that gap of rebel cities should be filled rapidly by the other factions of the game. After the turn of 50 or 80 or 100; there should very less Rebel cities, but it is not.

That gap perhaps be filled by including some other minor factions, which are really very good news for the BC 3.0
But there shouldn't be more than 2 region of space between two kingdoms. 3 is sometimes acceptable.

Now lets say, what kind of gaps there are in 2.3:

Great Seljuks - Kharezmshahs : 4 Regions of Gap (should be at least 2)
Great Seljuks - Ghurids : 3 Regions (should be 2)
Great Seljuks - Roman Empire (Trebizond) : it is 4 Regions.
Great Seljuks - Seljuks of Rum : IT IS 7 REGIONS!!! Seljuks of Rum and Great Seljuks should be very close states!!!

However, the Seljuks of Rum had inherited their kingdom from the Great Seljuks....
Great Seljuk family seperated, some went to rule the Seljuks of Anatolia region (Seljuks of Rum). Then they seperated from the Great Seljuks. The Empire divided, it is historical in the game; also in that time some minor amirates and begdoms emerged in that authority space. But it is not continuous, also their vassalages were shared by both Seljuks of Rum and Great Seljuks. That minor states were not significant, they can be Rebels, I agree, but Great Seljuks influenced that region. The both Seljuk kingdoms should be at least meet each other by East Anatolia-Tabriz corridor, there can be only at best 2-3 region.

Also by historical accuracy, Seljuks of Iraq's borders contained: large parts of Iraq, some areas of Syria and some parts of todays Iran (Tabriz, Hamadan, Kermanshah, also Rayy)
In addition to this, The Seljuks obviously should be in Iraq, the proof is also "the name". Seljuks of "Iraq" influenced and dominated the Iraq, Kermanshah, Hamadan and Tabriz. The city of Rayy's ownership is disputed between Kharezmshahs and Seljuks of Iraq due to struggle. Seljuks of Kerman (which is announced for the 3.0) was entered under the rule of Seljuks of Iraq by the year 1170 (It can be 1160s). So, if you start the game about 1174, Seljuk of Iraq faction is sufficient.
By the year of 1174, Tabriz, Hamadan and Kermanshah are definitely the regions of Seljuks of Iraq.

By the way, I should add a thing before telling the situation of Iraq-Southeastern Anatolia. Zengi's were the vassal of Great Seljuks, lots of people forgets this thing usually. Zengi's were "Atabegs", which means it is a "Lordship" (Atabeg means like Lord, but not exactly, for the word it is mentor of 'heirs', by the rule it was like Lordship) in the Empire of Great Seljuks. There were lots of Atabegs (Lords) in the Great Seljuks. Some were famous, some were forgotten. Some of them were become free from Seljuk rule, so the people consider them distinct states, but they all were originated from the Seljuks. Some remained vassal to the end, some rebelled in the disintegration time and became independent.

I don't know Eldiguzids (I don't hear them before, perhaps it is the spelling matter; please send me link or some knowledge about them), but Continuing with Zengis, their widest times had only seen during the life of Nureddin Mahmud Zengi. Nureddin Zengi died in May 15th, 1174. He handed down those largest borders which were containing: Damascus, Syria, Upper Mesopotamia, Southeastern Anatolia and Anatolia's some other Southern areas.
He also spreaded Mosul, Kirkuk and lastly south of Lake of Van. In that time (Nureddin Zengi) they were free from rule of Great Seljuks due to fragmentation; but they were neighbors with the Seljuks of Iraq.
They were border neighbors.

For the dispute of Mosul and Kirkuk (which should be in the hands of Zengis or Seljuks), they can be Rebel cities. But these two factions (both Seljuks and Zengis) should be next to the borders of these two cities.

Action of Broken Crescent starts in 1174.

In that year Khwarezmshah Tekish didn't have any feuds with Seljuks at that time, because he was busy maneouvering and fighting against Kara Khitay, Ghurids and his own brother, Sultan Shah, in northern Khurasan and Transoxiana.

Khwarezmian state did not border Iraq then, and it can't consist of more provinces to the south, because closest one, Merv, was under control of Sultan Shah. It wasn't before 1190's, I think, that Tekish reached Iraq, demanding submission from Eldiguzids and last Seljuk sultan in the East, Toghril III bin Arslan.

As for neighbourhood of the Great Seljuks and the Seljuks or Rum - that's not true as well. There were several amirates between two states and most importantly, there were Eldiguzids and Zengids there.

If you want to see more accurate situation, then you'll have to wait for 2.4, which will consist of at least two additional factions - Atabegs of Azerbaijan and Zengids.

That feud inherited by the year of 1141 and later. Before that time, The Great Seljuks was the occupants of the Kharezmian territory.

The Kharezmians were the vassal of Great Seljuks until 1141; but after the Great Seljuks had a serious defeat against Kara Khitays in the Qatvan Battle, Atsız the ruler of Kharezmians rebelled against Seljuks and invaded the Khorasan area, also took Merv and Nishabur. But in the years of 1143 and 1147, Great Seljuks had a vengeance campaign against Kharezmians; and Ahmed Sencer (the ruler of the Great Seljuks) took Urgench which was the capital of Atsız. Meanwhile, due to their kinship of both Seljuks and Kharezmians (both were Oghuz Turks and muslim) Sultan Sencer forgived them and gave vassalship to them again.

In the periods of Atsız and İl Arslan rulerships, Kharezmians fought both Seljuks of Iraq and Kara Khitays. After Sultan Ahmed Sencer had died, Kharezmians rebelled against the Great Seljuks again. Sultan Sencer died in 1157, Great Seljuk Empire started to fragmentation. After the fragmentation, there were three Seljuk state, some atabeg states, also some minor states (which can be rebel cities and states in the mod).

In the time of Khwarezmshah Tekish, they took Buhara in 1182, Cuzcan and Mazenderan in 1183, Nishapur in 1187, Rayy and Teheran in 1192.
In 1192, Seljuks of Iraq was overwhelmed and destroyed by Kharezmshahs.

I am looking to see 2.4, then. That is great news, which Atabegs of Azerbaijan and Zengids would be very good for the accuracy and flow of the campaign.
Thanks for the reply

[k/t]

I like taking rebel settlements and increasing my kingdom's size.

[wudang_clown]

Thank you for your input, Farwest.

Of course, BC team is more or less familiar with historical and geographical conditions in 1174.

In that period the Sejuks in Iraq were not a power anymore, and they were more or less under control of Eldiguzids, dominant in the region back then. Sultan Arlan Shah bin Toghril was in fact installed by Eldiguzids in Hamadan, and reportedly he was poisoned in 1176 when he tried to break away from Atabegs' imposed tutelage. After Sultan's death, Toghril III bin Arslan was installed as sultan, but he was just a child.

As for Tabriz, in 1174 it was certainly a possession of Atabeg Pahlawan bin Eldiguz, and during late 1180's and early 1190's it was even the capital of Atabeg Kizil Arslan (Pahlawan's brother).

Zangids didn't hand over their lands; on the contrary, there was a some fighting between successors of Nur al-Din and Salah al-Din and his successors; Zangids were still in Aleppo in 1183 and they held out in Mosul until 1233.

If it comes to rebel territories, you're right, there are to many of them, yes, but we have chosen to leave those as rebels until new factions are implemented. That will happen in 2.4, but until then you'll have to take the mod as it is.

[Farwest]

I also learned a lot by searching Eldiguzids a little. Frankly, I am surprised how I don't know Eldiguzids before. But I knew them with their "Atabegs of Azerbaijan name" before.
Do not get me wrong, you are taking these issues seriously, you are trying to reflect the history to the mod carefully. I am only a player of your mod, who enjoys to experience the great atmosphere in it (also want its improvement).

Zangids didn't hand over their lands; on the contrary, there was a some fighting between successors of Nur al-Din and Salah al-Din and his successors; Zangids were still in Aleppo in 1183 and they held out in Mosul until 1233.

I said for Zangid's hand over for the matter: "after the day, Nureddin Zengi died, the country's border were from Syria to Upper mesopotamia..." like that. I also agree for your statements.

In that period the Sejuks in Iraq were not a power anymore, and they were more or less under control of Eldiguzids, dominant in the region back then. Sultan Arlan Shah bin Toghril was in fact installed by Eldiguzids in Hamadan, and reportedly he was poisoned in 1176 when he tried to break away from Atabegs' imposed tutelage. After Sultan's death, Toghril III bin Arslan was installed as sultan, but he was just a child.

As for Tabriz, in 1174 it was certainly a possession of Atabeg Pahlawan bin Eldiguz, and during late 1180's and early 1190's it was even the capital of Atabeg Kizil Arslan (Pahlawan's brother).

It is true that, Seljuks were losing much power in that era. But Eldiguzids (Ildenizids) were obeying their Seljuk rulers, their coins indicates their dependent to the Seljuk authority. After Kharezmianshah weaken them and Mongol invasion; then these Atabegs overthrew them. Seljuk Empire was like Holy Roman Empire, lots of minor/major states included in it; some were gaining power in the process. The factions had struggle inside the Empire. But they formed an Empire from the outer view.

If you include much more factions like some other Atabegs, then the Seljuks would be like a Union, or a League. If there wouldn't any Atabegs, then the Seljuks should have very wide borders, but including Atabegs in the Empire.

Toghrul III bin Arslan was crowned with the support of Atabegs of Pehlewan (It means wrestler in Turkish, Pehlivân). All the minor states were accepted his rulership, also Khalifa al-Mostazî recognized him as Sultan. But after the Atabeg of Pehlewan died, sons of him obeyed to Qizil Arslan. After the event, In 1191 Toghrul III, the last Seljuq ruler was overthrown by Qizil Arslan and he proclaimed himself Sultan of Great Seljuk Empire. That event made another succession war inside the Empire. The same year Qizil Arslan, who had become the individual ruler of the Great Seljuq Empire was, assassinated In 1191. After the death of Qizil Arslan, Toghrul III crowned again by the support of some other Amirs and Begs.

These are the succession wars among the Seljuk Empire. All the Atabegs were included in the Empire, but in the last times of its life, the Atabegs became independent. Zengis and some few Atabegs did not interested in these succession wars so much, because they had some other important events among their borders, like Crusader threats. After Toghrul III died in the battlefield in front of Kharezmianshah Tekish in 1194, the Empire broken. All the Atabegs freed from their ties and obedience after that incident.

I think it is very difficult to portray Atabegs in the succession wars of the Great Seljuk Crown (still after its disintegration).

So in my opinion, there are three ways to portray the Seljuks in the mod:

1) Making Seljuks of Iraq with vasallages of Atabegs, but after having battle with Kharezmianshahs and Mongols; Atabegs will end vassallage and start war (or going neutral) against Seljuks with some scripts.

2) Making Seljuks of Iraq a small/moderate state; which is aiming to take control back over his former Empire borders. Also have revenge and domination campaigns on Atabegs.

3) Making Great Seljuks the largest faction in the game, but making it a very weak Empire troubled and infected by lots of bandit armies (all could be the challengers to the crown, also majority of these challengers should be Oghuz tribes who were discontent from the authority). The Empire could be like Seleucid Empire, a very large but very weak by military and economy which is about to dissolve, nearly all of the cities have a threat of unrest and rebellion series. The Empire is containing nearly all the Atabegs (not Zengis, Seljuks of Rum) and you are trying to control the Empire again, but have very difficulties...


Seljuks is in the centre of the map on the mod and that can decorate the mod with some very interesting struggles and campaigns with its features to play.

_____

Besides I think, Kharezmianshahs should be a more powerful state, because they were aiming to gain control of Iraq while they were coming to the gates of Rayy which could crush Seljuk armies very easily, also could dominate a vast region.

_____

Also in 2.4, for instance playing with Atabegs of Azerbaijan and after having a very large area of regions; can there be a way to change the faction name or form the state to Great Seljuk Empire ? Qizil Arslan also wanted to be crowned Sultan of Great Seljuk Empire. That example is valid for the other Atabegs, also. Perhaps forming the Empire with Atabegs could be a beautiful feature in the mod.
There is a script for that I know, which is used in Third Age Total War, to form Arnor with Eriador (all soldiers, faction banner, name, culture are changed).

I think you are confusing the "Iraq" here. It is not referring to modern day Iraq but region within modern day Iran, including Hamadan itself.

It's called as Iraq-i Ajam or Persian Iraq. So when talking about Seljuqs of Iraq, you should not be referring to modern day Iraq.

Perhaps you are right. I like to search on Seljuks and their history, but don't know the Persian Iraq before.

[nein]

yes k/t but for some factions it is massive overkill... having to conquer endless rebel settlements is very boring. When playing as georgia or the seljuks you can take as many as 20 settlements before any inter-faction wars begin. Still this will be fixed in 3.0, the map looks much more busy

[Atabeg]

I think you are confusing the "Iraq" here. It is not referring to modern day Iraq but region within modern day Iran, including Hamadan itself.

It's called as Iraq-i Ajam or Persian Iraq. So when talking about Seljuqs of Iraq, you should not be referring to modern day Iraq.

[Atabeg]

Dear Farwest;

They were not really obeying Seljuq rulers. I think what you don't understand is that Arslan Shah himself were installed to the crown by Atabeg of Azerbaijan, Shemseddin Eldeniz.

It was all political, in reality it was the same Eldiguzids that were ruling, in name of Seljuq Sultan. That's it really.

Why do you think Arslan Shah were killed in first place? Because he wanted to break himself from Eldiguzid rule.

So in reality, it was Seljuq Sultan obeying Atabeg of Azerbaijan.

[Farwest]

Dear Atabeg,

It is true that Arslan Shah himself were installed to the crown by Atabeg of Azerbaijan, Şemseddin İldeniz.

You also said, it was all political, they were under the reign of Seljuk Empire; but İldenizs (Eldiguzids) were ruling behind the curtains.

But that is a game of thrones. The events were occuring inside the Empire. After the feeling of Empire's collapse became close, these Atabegs became independent. But to that time, they were under the reign of Seljuk Empire, as different states in a Union.

[Tureuki]

Technically they're not Great Seljuks.

[nein]

more like 'meh' seljuks?

[Tureuki]

Yup anyway, Seljuk Sultans of Iraq are not succesed the Sanjar, in the Sanjar's reign they were sultans too but were vassals to Sanjar, so Sanjar was the last Great Seljuk sultan, Seljuks of Iraq technically just a branch like Seljuks of Rum.

[wudang_clown]

Yup anyway, Seljuk Sultans of Iraq are not succesed the Sanjar, in the Sanjar's reign they were sultans too but were vassals to Sanjar, so Sanjar was the last Great Seljuk sultan, Seljuks of Iraq technically just a branch like Seljuks of Rum.

Last Great Seljuk in the west (Western Persia and Irak) was Muhammad bin Malik Shah. Ahmad Sanjar was also bin Malik Shah, so they were brothers, so Sanjar was Great Seljuk, too. Sanjar recognized supremacy of Muhammad, and when the latter died he took the power, because sons of Muhammad were quarrelling over succession.

So, looking at blood relationship, sons of Muhammad bin Malik Shah and their sons and, finally, Toghril III were Great Seljuks as much as Sanjar was.

If, however, the term "Great Seljuk" was limited only to something like "supreme Seljuk" (which I'm still not sure of) and denoted position of power rather than blood relationship, then there is a possibility to use it the game.

[Farwest]

I accept that they are different (descendant the Empire) from Great Seljuks; but why then the Atabegs coins were still dependant to Seljuk Crown in the reign of Seljuk of Iraq?

[Tureuki]

Actually its not changes the fact, for example Oghuz who defeated the Sanjar and imprisoned him did the same thing, tried to install a family member as their puppets, I guess its about morals.

@wudang

In my opinion its not applies in the parallel statues, Sultans of Iraq were vassals of Sanjar in his reign, he's not succesed, they were already Sultans before his dead.

[Atabeg]

Not really mate, for instance other Atabegdoms were vassals of Eldiguzids (the reason why Shemseddin Eldeniz held the "Atabekan-e Azam" title). According to your logic, they should have been vassals of Iraq Seljuqs and not Eldiguzids?

If your talking about how they should be implemented in the game itself, Eldiguzids and Seljuqs of Iraq should be natural allies perhaps.

About the Great Seljuqs, there was no Great Seljuq Empire by that time.