I am trying to like this mod

[kostas84]

But i just cant

Such a low amount of provinces, low amount of factions to play as. I realise that i have no idea about the Fourth Age of LOTR, but still.

The Reunited Kingdom and Kingdom of Adunabar units are so similar that i am discouraged from playing Gondor, which is my favourite faction.

Plus, when i played as Kingdom of Adunabar, i conquered Minas Tirith on turn 2 and then i just steamrolled the Reunited Kingdom...

[Aradan]

We are sorry to hear the low number of provinces and factions prevent you from enjoying everything else the mod has to offer.

RK and Adunabar are sister-factions, Adunabar being the result of a civil war, hence the very similar units.

As for the balance between them, they have been made relatively equal, but the player is much more capable than the AI, so whatever faction he starts as, he manages to gain the upper hand quickly, especially given we are restricted by the lore with regards to where to put the two factions' capitals/power centres. That's my fault, we should have used a campaign script to change the starting situation according to which player the faction has, but at the time TNS was released we had issues with having such a script, which we didn't know how to fix.

If it's any consolation, the upcoming release will feature twice as many provinces (ie, the full map) and almost three times as many factions, plus a great deal of new features (including a complete alternative roster for Adunabar); so if you stick around for a little bit we believe you won't be disappointed.

[kostas84]

Heres a couple of suggestions:

1. When a player sieges a city, make it spawn a garrison on the next turn depending on the city level, the larger the town/city the more expirienced and elite units spawn, of course make them dissapear the next turn. For example, theres a Huge city under siege, elite units with chevrons spawn. A small town under siege? Make levies spawn and gold chevron peasant units to represent people taking up arms to defend their homes.

2. Make the Kingdom of Adunabar more orc-focused, because they are shadow cultists and all, i believe they should get a better and more variety of orcs(if they already do, ignore this suggestion).

3. Money bonus for the AI(if there isnt one already, or make it larger so that the AI can create armies faster).

4. Make a second campaign thats more focused on fun gameplay and diversity rather than on Lore. But the lore campaign should have cool scripted events and stuff like that. But i see that the next update will cover everything.

Maybe create a beta testing team(if you havent already), and get feedback from the players themselves about the mod. I can help if you want with the beta testing, i can edit simple text files, help with unit balance and add invisible boarders to the game. This mod looks extremely promising and i would like to help this mod become as successful as Roma Surrectum.

Be creative about the AI bonuses, try to use what lore you have to your advantage.


I am sorry if i was harsh, its just that im too used to playing mods such as EB and Roma Surrectum.

Try to learn what other mods have, what makes them so successful?

I will be looking forward to the update, it sounds very promising.

I am trying to help.

[Aradan]

Heres a couple of suggestions:

1. When a player sieges a city, make it spawn a garrison on the next turn depending on the city level, the larger the town/city the more expirienced and elite units spawn, of course make them dissapear the next turn. For example, theres a Huge city under siege, elite units with chevrons spawn. A small town under siege? Make levies spawn and gold chevron peasant units to represent people taking up arms to defend their homes.

A garrison script requires a background script to be running all the time; this makes the game 'heavy' and slow, so we are not using it. Some people are also frustrated when the win a major battle and proceed the siege the lightly-defended settlement only to find another strong army waiting for them.

2. Make the Kingdom of Adunabar more orc-focused, because they are shadow cultists and all, i believe they should get a better and more variety of orcs(if they already do, ignore this suggestion).

In DoM Adunabar has an entire cultic roster, which is active when the regular one is not (and vice versa).

3. Money bonus for the AI(if there isnt one already, or make it larger so that the AI can create armies faster).

Already there in DoM.

4. Make a second campaign thats more focused on fun gameplay and diversity rather than on Lore. But the lore campaign should have cool scripted events and stuff like that. But i see that the next update will cover everything.

Indeed, I don't think lore and gameplay are mutually exclusive. DoM, we hope, will have everything. Scripted events excluded, since we don't use a background script.

Maybe create a beta testing team(if you havent already), and get feedback from the players themselves about the mod. I can help if you want with the beta testing, i can edit simple text files, help with unit balance and add invisible boarders to the game. This mod looks extremely promising and i would like to help this mod become as successful as Roma Surrectum.

When we are close to release, we will create a beta-team, if you're still interested at the time, we'll be happy to have you.
TNS was created 4 years ago, which is why it seems so outdated now. It was actually pretty successful when it was released, it was in ModDB's top100 mods, had a bunch of "best X" awards here, its team-members as well, and it had around the same number of DLs as EB.

Be creative about the AI bonuses, try to use what lore you have to your advantage.

Noted.

I am sorry if i was harsh, its just that im too used to playing mods such as EB and Roma Surrectum.

Try to learn what other mods have, what makes them so successful?

I am familiar with both mods. Nonetheless I would be very interested in a list of gameplay-related features you (and everyone else) like about them that are not present in FATW.

[QUOTE]I will be looking forward to the update, it sounds very promising.

I am trying to help.

Glad to hear! And don't worry, we understand you're not trying to bash the mod.

[Casual Tactician]

I am familiar with both mods. Nonetheless I would be very interested in a list of gameplay-related features you (and everyone else) like about them that are not present in FATW.

As EB and FATW are my two favourite mods, I'll list some of EB's features I really like; and other features that would be a fine thing for DoM:

a) Realism - Already in FATW, altough lore-correctness is perhaps the more accurate term. All other LotR mods are heavily based on the Peter Jackson movies, which are nice enternainment and a good watch but I personally had some issues with (e.g. Legolas' Tarzan impression when single handedly slaugthering Mumakil to only name one here).

b) Atomosphere/immersion - Already in FATW.

c) A good traits and ancillaries system - Already in FATW.

d) A complex AoR system - This is definitelvy a strong suit of EB (together with the government system), but something that, imo, isn't actually transferable to FATW. In EB there's no good-evil (or honourable-debauched if you will) dichotomy as in Middle-earth and it's probably unlikely that the more elite units of Harad would, for example, fight for the RK - let alone Orcs or Trolls. Whereas in ancient 'Normal-earth' Thracians didn't have any trouble fighting for Rome or Indians fighting for Hellenistic Bactria.
Though having two separate and paralell tiers of barracks, one for factional troops and one for units only locally available in certain provinces, could perhaps be something for DoM. I saw there's a discussion about the diversity of Gondor's units, where the question came up how make local units recruitable without kicking out the factional ones. Though I might have misunderstood something there:

Then, assuming we make only local levies available in Gondor, where would the professional troops come from? Only MA? Do other provinces have the potential of recruiting the professional troops? What happens when RK captures a province outside its homelands? What kind of "factional" unit becomes available where there are now the Militia?

.
e) (Garrison) Scripts - EB also doesn't use a garrison script (except for one rebel settlement afaik), but to have a garrison script for, say, the capitals and in Adunabar's case also for the two western passages into Mordor would be a really neat bonus. Nothing gigantic, only 3-5 all units perhaps. Having a global garrison script is a nightmare though, and nothing I'd support.
Also one or two scripted events regarding diplomacy (in EB faction X will declare war on you, if you attack settlement Y for example) or spawned AI armies when the player seizes certain settlemts (not in EB either) would be a treat.
But these are no big issues and not really necessary, and as the team has decided against using a background script (altohugh these few events wouldn't really slow the game down very much I guess) is fine with me. I don't steam-roll the AI early on (in any TW mod), so I've never had, all in all, an issue with too poorly defended AI territories.

f) Certainy of facing Trolls and Mumakil when fighting the AI - This is a matter that needs (with a sweet please) correction in DoM. In TNS, if you're unfortunate, it's possible that Adunabar and Harad will not at all build barracks for Trolls or Mumakil respectively. And that's a total bummer - and for me a reason to quit the campaign and get very annoyed. For TNS I therefore modded the EDB.txt to be sure to fight against Trolls and Mumakil, but I hope that in DoM at least one province in Mordor/Harad will only be able to build barracks that make Trolls/Mumakil recruitable (leastways when the AI plays those factions). Also sometimes it's possible to only see Warg units very rarely, so that might also need to be adressed.
To make a long story short: please, please, make Trolls, Mumakil (and to a lesser extend Wargs and Uruks) more common/likely and have at least always one province that will definitively produce those units.

Regards.


PS: DoM will be great! Looking forward to it. And thanks again to the entire team working on DOM.

[Aradan]

Then how will you make the AI harder, and do cool events that are in the lore?

Scripts do not make the AI better, they are simply a cheat to conceal its stupidity.
We have actually done something to improve the AI: we have a way to make it destroy buildings it doesn't use (so if AI takes one of your provinces and you take it back, you'll need to rebuild a lot of things) and we can also force it to make specific choices in specific provinces (where there are options as to what to construct). We also have passive/defensive Elves and Dwarves, permanent player-breakable-only alliances between Rohan-RK and Dale-Dwarves, improved AI path-finding/targeting on the strat-map, toggle-able global reforms (roster "swaps"), all without scripts, built into the game and not causing any slowdown at all. Last I checked, those things were not on the feature-list of any of the script-heavy mods.

d) A complex AoR system - [...]
Though having two separate and paralell tiers of barracks, one for factional troops and one for units only locally available in certain provinces, could perhaps be something for DoM. I saw there's a discussion about the diversity of Gondor's units, where the question came up how make local units recruitable without kicking out the factional ones. Though I might have misunderstood something there:

The problem with the local line of barracks is what units to give in the highest tiers, since the local nobles will not fight for anyone outside their own faction. Spearmen of the Serpent wouldn't fight for RK and RK Men-at-Arms wouldn't fight for Rhun.
.

e) (Garrison) Scripts - EB also doesn't use a garrison script (except for one rebel settlement afaik), but to have a garrison script for, say, the capitals and in Adunabar's case also for the two western passages into Mordor would be a really neat bonus. Nothing gigantic, only 3-5 all units perhaps. Having a global garrison script is a nightmare though, and nothing I'd support.

Not sure it's worth it. Apart from there not being a way to work as intended for sure, it is also a bit arbitrary, because garrisons in fixed locations make sense only if the province ownership setup is always the same as at campaign start. A faction's key spots would change dynamically depending on the situation. In order for the reinforcments to make sense, you'd need a complex-ish script, even for a few settlements.

Also one or two scripted events regarding diplomacy (in EB faction X will declare war on you, if you attack settlement Y for example) or spawned AI armies when the player seizes certain settlemts (not in EB either) would be a treat.

It would be a treat if you could make the AI aware of that script. Until then it's a player-only thing which means it's unbalanced (the AI could walk into a war unintentionally by attacking a rebel city, since it doesn't know this will trigger a war with a certain faction).

f) Certainy of facing Trolls and Mumakil when fighting the AI - This is a matter that needs (with a sweet please) correction in DoM. In TNS, if you're unfortunate, it's possible that Adunabar and Harad will not at all build barracks for Trolls or Mumakil respectively. And that's a total bummer - and for me a reason to quit the campaign and get very annoyed. For TNS I therefore modded the EDB.txt to be sure to fight against Trolls and Mumakil, but I hope that in DoM at least one province in Mordor/Harad will only be able to build barracks that make Trolls/Mumakil recruitable (leastways when the AI plays those factions). Also sometimes it's possible to only see Warg units very rarely, so that might also need to be adressed.
To make a long story short: please, please, make Trolls, Mumakil (and to a lesser extend Wargs and Uruks) more common/likely and have at least always one province that will definitively produce those units.[/QUOTE]Worry not, we have been hard at work, we will make the AI a much more interesting opponent.

That's the beauty of this mod-- it is like a historian's foresight, a prediction of the future in a LOTR context. You are not restrained by the events of the past, yet operate in the same condition. That's something that's just not possible with a mod based on real history without revisionism.

That's a great way to put it.

[Casual Tactician]

The problem with the local line of barracks is what units to give in the highest tiers, since the local nobles will not fight for anyone outside their own faction. Spearmen of the Serpent wouldn't fight for RK and RK Men-at-Arms wouldn't fight for Rhun.

Ok, that was what I thought myself (as stated in my earlier post).
But will there be restricitions for, say, the high tier units of Rohan in areas that are far away from the Rohirrim's homeland provinces. IE will, as example, Rohan only be able to recruit it's best units in it's starting provinces and perhaps some adjacent ones (and perhaps parts of Rhovanion, their place of origin) or all over Middle-earth? (not sure how this is handled in TNS)

Not sure it's worth it. Apart from there not being a way to work as intended for sure, it is also a bit arbitrary, because garrisons in fixed locations make sense only if the province ownership setup is always the same as at campaign start. A faction's key spots would change dynamically depending on the situation. In order for the reinforcments to make sense, you'd need a complex-ish script, even for a few settlements.

I thought for capitals only and perhaps even just those of the main/playable factions. And in Adunabars case maybe additionally Minas Ithil, so it doesn't get overrun by player-RK in the first few turns. I personally simply don't steam-roll into Mordor early in the game, so that's actually not that important for me. Just an idea; and the settlements it would affect are small in number.

It would be a treat if you could make the AI aware of that script. Until then it's a player-only thing which means it's unbalanced (the AI could walk into a war unintentionally by attacking a rebel city, since it doesn't know this will trigger a war with a certain faction).

Never though about that. What you said in your response to kostas seems the better solution for DoM then.

Worry not, we have been hard at work, we will make the AI a much more interesting opponent.

Fantastic! That was the only thing that bugged me playing TNS (before I changed the EDB), as it could be very disappointing to realise halfway through the campaign that Adunabar and/or Harad woudn't be fielding any Trolls or Mumakil respectively. Great news. Thanks.

[kostas84]

Thing is, Scripts make the game better in expense of making the game Heavy and Slow, and it sometimes makes crashes and can be a pain to fix.

But you can do amazing things with it and can make player expirience better and the AI harder, its a double-edged sword.

Ill see what i can do about the features.

[MasterOfNone]

A lot can be done without background scripts - if you're inventive FATW has always been - and will always be - script free, and is the leader in innovation Why have heavy, bug-prone, immersion-breaking, and fail-to-always work-properly background scripts, when they are not needed (especially in a mod that follows no recorded historical timeline)?

[kostas84]

Then how will you make the AI harder, and do cool events that are in the lore?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Then how will you make the AI harder, and do cool events that are in the lore?

The fourth age has no lore.

[kostas84]

Then what was this mod based on?

I thought it was a lore-based mod, because Aradan said that they are lore-restricted(somewhere, i remember it).

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Then what was this mod based on?

I thought it was a lore-based mod, because Aradan said that they are lore-restricted(somewhere, i remember it).

It is based on lore, yes, but it's based on realistically extending third age lore. There are no events in the fourth age to be scripted. The only event Tolkien mentioned is the schism in which Adunbar (name made up by team) was created.

[atheniandp]

It is based on lore, yes, but it's based on realistically extending third age lore. There are no events in the fourth age to be scripted. The only event Tolkien mentioned is the schism in which Adunbar (name made up by team) was created.

That's the beauty of this mod-- it is like a historian's foresight, a prediction of the future in a LOTR context. You are not restrained by the events of the past, yet operate in the same condition. That's something that's just not possible with a mod based on real history without revisionism.

[Aradan]

There is something similar-ish in RS2, they have a division between economic and military settlements, but the final tier is always a "merged city" (if I recall the term correctly), which means there is ultimately no choice to be made, every settlement ends up the same.

[Aradan]

Certain factions can 'incorprorate' mid-tier units from certain other factions or imitations of them.

This is also there in TNS; RK and Adunabar can train Riders of the Mark in Edoras, and maybe HD (can't remember), Rohan can train Longowmen in MT and MI, Harad and Rhun train Pikemen in Dunhold etc. There have been some changes in DoM, but the system of "Assimilation Units" is still in place. Certain factions might get a bonus in this direction, the possibility of assimilating more units into their own roster, I've not yet got around to implementing that though. I don't want to over-do it however, because armies will lose their uniqueness, if you can see the same units in multiple factions' rosters.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I think Harad should be an assimilating type, being a Middle Eastern style state. I imagine they'd make good use of units from Harondor, far Harad, Khand and thus possibly other conquered territories.

[Aradan]

They already get a unit from each Harondor and Far Harad, because those regions are considered their homelands as well. Not sure about Khand, we have decided minor factions (the ones previously unplayable) won't give AUs to anyone.

[wesnoth.hero]

Any new previews or release dates since the second development diary?

[Aradan]

Eorl has posted several screenshots in the relevant thread and I've been answering questions here and there, but there has not being a huge 'organised' preview.