"Organic" Food...

[PointOfViewGun]

Can somebody tell me why food that doesn't contain artificial ingredients are called "organic" rather then the proper term "natural"? Can anyone show me an inorganic egg? I find this label ridiculous. Normally the term "organic" means that it has come from a living organism.

[Logios]

Yes, it is a stupid label because it does not reveal the actual destinction between said product and a different one.
What "organic" means in this context is that no pesticides, herbicides, fungicides or synthetic fertilizer was used for producing the product.
In the case of eggs this applies to the feed given to the hens, regulations about minimum floor space for each hen, and access to outside areas.
You could argue that the labelling should be reversed, meaning that those product today known as "organic" should be unlabelled while those where agrochemicals are applied should be labelled - something else - but that already sounds like a loosing battle.
If you have a better idea as to how this distinction should be made then perhaps you should put it forward.

[sumskilz]

Yeah, I think we’re stuck with the nomenclature as it is despite how nonsensical it seems to be from an etymological perspective. It’s funny because the word has become associated with healthiness, but plenty of organic compounds can kill you.

[eisenkopf]

In many non-english speaking countries in Europe, the label is "bio" (for "biologically"). Now please show me the food that's not "biological".

Part of the problem is the marketing dynamism of "conventional" food companies, which were quick to jump any bandwagon on "natural" or "healthy" food, freely using terms before their use was regulated by law, and thus rendering them useless (without real meaning) in the process.

The best term would probably be "ecologic", but its abbreviation is the same as "economic"... so we're stuck with "bio" or "organic".

The stupid labeling does not change the fact that "organic" or "biological" food has its advantages over conventional food.

[Phier]

Organic food is a way to sell high end produce to an upscale market for high prices.

It falls under 'First world problems'.

[TheDarkKnight]

Organic food is a way to sell high end produce to an upscale market for high prices.

It falls under 'First world problems'.

Indeed.

[PointOfViewGun]

Is there any regulations for the term "natural" that makes it's use impossible for what they call now an organic product?

[Phier]

What I find interesting is that people around me think Organic is better because its VERY nice looking produce here. What they don't get is they are selling it to yuppies who would never buy a tomato with a bruise on it. What they are seeing is the true cream of the crop only.

Is there any regulations for the term "natural" that makes it's use impossible for what they call now an organic product?

http://usda-fda.com/articles/organic.htm

Good info I think.

[PointOfViewGun]

What I find interesting is that people around me think Organic is better because its VERY nice looking produce here. What they don't get is they are selling it to yuppies who would never buy a tomato with a bruise on it. What they are seeing is the true cream of the crop only.

http://usda-fda.com/articles/organic.htm

Good info I think.

That didn't answer my question.

[Phier]

That didn't answer my question.

If your question is just about semantics then its marketing. They could call it 'natural' but organic obviously had a better vibe. When I was a child things would be marketed as 'all natural' but being there was no regulation, I'm sure it was often BS.

Organic still works in that the processes involved would be organic. Organic fertilizer (aka ), organic pesticides (prayer and some bugs), that sort of thing.

[PointOfViewGun]

If your question is just about semantics then its marketing. They could call it 'natural' but organic obviously had a better vibe. When I was a child things would be marketed as 'all natural' but being there was no regulation, I'm sure it was often BS.

Organic still works in that the processes involved would be organic. Organic fertilizer (aka ), organic pesticides (prayer and some bugs), that sort of thing.

eisonkopf said that the term "natural" was used before they were regulated. So there must be a reason why they abandoned that and chose "organic".

[brandbll]

If your question is just about semantics then its marketing. They could call it 'natural' but organic obviously had a better vibe. When I was a child things would be marketed as 'all natural' but being there was no regulation, I'm sure it was often BS.

Organic still works in that the processes involved would be organic. Organic fertilizer (aka ), organic pesticides (prayer and some bugs), that sort of thing.

The term "all natural" gets thrown around like it's going out of style. 7up use to have it as their slogan. It was the "all natural" soda. Yet, it had zero fruit juice in it. How that works is beyond me. I've seen it labeled on other retarded products as well.

[John Doe]

Is there any regulations for the term "natural" that makes it's use impossible for what they call now an organic product?

Fish caught in the wild can't be sold as organic, because you can't prove that what they eat was also organic. I'll put term such as organic and fair trade as consumerism placebo, it gives the sucker who buy them a sense feelgood because he paid a premium.

[PointOfViewGun]

Fish caught in the wild can't be sold as organic, because you can't prove that what they eat was also organic. I'll put term such as organic and fair trade as consumerism placebo, it gives the sucker who buy them a sense feelgood because he paid a premium.

Yeah, it can't be sold as organic because there is no such thing called inorganic fish.

[Logios]

Found an article on the subject of "Organic fish". It seems that some wild-caught fish is actually being labelled "organic" like it can be done with farmed fish that only receive organic feed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/28/bu...pagewanted=all

[Phier]

The first "organic" certified (by the group) farms were in the early 70's but as a term its just marketing.

Now that there is finally some official guidelines to saying "organic" its going to stick. Before 2002 just about anyone could use the term organic. My guess is that after decades of "all natural" someone decided to give organic a shot as sounding different than their competitors.

[Kanaric]

Organic foods are a gimmick propagated by people who write books trying to scare people to spend more money. I remember reading this BS book my mom bought and she started buying into that gimmick . These people probably also fear fluoridated water.

If someone wants to spend a car payment more me to shop at whole foods to make themselves feel better then go ahead. I'll spend that money on a car, thanks.

[chamaeleo]

Organic foods are a gimmick propagated by people who write books trying to scare people to spend more money.

Would you suggest that pesticides, herbicides and artificial fertilizers are healthy for people and the environment?

Why should a conventional farmer spend >50% of his cash and labor supplementing a natural process with expensive, potentially toxic chemicals, for a 50-100% increase in yield, only to sell his produce at 1/2 the price of his organic competitors?

However you feel about the unknown hazards of conventionally grown/raised foods, or the unsustainable folly of adopting an agricorp business model...organic usually tastes better. Believe it: that actually makes a difference to some folks.

To me the only downside to organic, is that it renders a lot of conventional produce rather tasteless by comparison.

[Phier]

However you feel about the unknown hazards of conventionally grown/raised foods, or the unsustainable folly of adopting an agricorp business model...organic usually tastes better. Believe it: that actually makes a difference to some folks.

I would bet on a blind taste test you wouldn't be able to tell. Part of the organic myth is that most stuff sold as 'organic' is top quality high intensity produce sorted for perfection to be marked up to wealthy buyers. That may well taste better because its the best quality, not because they used real poo to fertilize it.

Being that the world population is still growing, organic farming is really only a luxury concept for first world problems. Then again, subsistence farming tends to be organic too, and that just doesn't seem all that special.

[chamaeleo]

I would bet on a blind taste test you wouldn't be able to tell.

Oh really? You've tried it?

I bet not.

For produce such as corn, which doesn't really need conventional supplements to thrive, I agree. For tomatoes, apples, strawberries, and other intensely pesticide laden produce...you've got to either be kidding, or allowing your sphincter get ahead of your mouth.

Has anybody else here eaten grass-fed, free range beef, or butter derived from such cattle? HUGE difference from corn-fattened, antibiotic-ridden conventional beef. Tons of Omega-3's. Try it, seriously, even if the truth might be hard for you to swallow...the meat is delicious.

Part of the organic myth is that most stuff sold as 'organic' is top quality high intensity produce sorted for perfection to be marked up to wealthy buyers.

High intensity? Sorry, compared to what exactly?

Organic produce usually looks pretty crummy, what with all the insect damage. It still tastes better and contains a healthier nutrient assemblage. The well-sorted WholeFoods offerings are exactly that: sorted. Nothing more. The rest of the crop, with its blemishes, goes to the farmer's table, friends and neighbors, the farmer's market and local restaurants. Nothing gets wasted by sorting: the farmers are merely selling their best produce at the best venue. Capitalism.

It tastes better mainly because the soil hasn't been nuked. Plant roots evolved to inhabit a complex community of microbes, fungi, insects, worms...and of course neighboring roots. Living soil does a superb job of creating a rich plant substrate, whereas dead soil requires regular chemical additive tweaks to maintain a mere imitation of balance.

Organic meat does look better. Because it just is.

That may well taste better because its the best quality, not because they used real poo to fertilize it.

Your continual derogatory reference to 'poo' fertilizer reveals your bias: surely you've learnt something of nutrient cycling by now? Poo needs to first be broken down, by the very diverse legions of microbes and fungi which you apparently disregard as useless. Whose fate is eradication and replacement by way of reprocessed mine tailings and baked/sorted/dried/granularized/bagged/transported manure.

Poo is the smelly basis for life...deal with it.

Being that the world population is still growing, organic farming is really only a luxury concept for first world problems. Then again, subsistence farming tends to be organic too, and that just doesn't seem all that special.

For a self-described "ex-ecologist" your remarks sure can be narrow.

Our conventional approach of maximizing monoculture production is only good for short-term profitability. It depletes the soil, hastens mass wasting, encourages evolutionary arms races in pest species, makes farmers entirely dependent on the chemical industry, and ultimately...only exists in its current form due to massive government subsidies. I thought you despised welfare?

For me the discussion isn't even organic vs conventional, it should be mono vs multiculture. Huge fields of a single crop are unnatural ecosystems, and the closer your field resembles nature the less work and greater your growing success. My personal experiments and observations jive completely with that statement.

My garden layouts look more like a waist-high food forest: everything is interspersed, complementary neighbors, and the only lines are irrigation furrows. Early season lettuces, spinach, and such are planted before pests even emerge from hibernation. Early on also I plant 'decoy' radishes whose leaves are chosen over newly sprouting plants (they don't eat the radish root...I do). Onion, garlic, chives around the perimeter to repel pests. Clumps of 3-4 corn plants form towers upon which climbing vines (peas, beans, tomatoes) can cling to as their leaves seek the light. Cantaloupe, watermelon, squash, eggplant vines stay low to the ground, their massive leaves shading the ground and reducing evapotranspiration. Nitrogen fixers (legumes) replenish soil fertility and always make fine neighbors. Carrots, celery, chives and other plants having micro-flowers attract parasitic wasps and other pest predators. I'm also training grapes and hops up the backside of the fenceline, and across the overlying arbor, positioned to shade the garden during the hottest part of the NM summer afternoon.

On the other side of this fence is my orchard/chickenrun: where windfallen apples, cherries, cherry tomatoes, plums, grapes and hops last all of 3 seconds. I've stopped thinking of weeding as a chore as it's pretty fun to rip and chuck sprouts to my hungrily clucking audience (whose eggs' yolks are fluorescent orange from beta carotene). One of this summer's projects will be acquiring guineafowl: essentially miniature, insectivorous turkey-like birds who patrol gardens for pests while refraining from destroying the crop.

The beauty of this approach is I allow natural selection to work. Distancing like plants reduces pests' browsing abilities...I'll prolly never have a net loss due to disease or pests. When squashbugs destroy the squash, I get a few more cantaloupe. When a tomatoplant's leaves gets eaten by a hornworm overnight, neighboring tomatoes 2-3' away are out of danger. By last season's end I didn't even need to hunt the hormworms: each tomato and pepper had acquired its very own attendent praying mantis!

I don't even till or pull old roots anymore, it disturbs the soil community and the roots host all sorts of complementary microbes. I produce zero greenwaste, and I buy zero soil amendments: all prunings and cuttings become either firewood, compost or goat munchies. All bedding from goats and chickens goes straight to compost. Insects and plants are my pesticides. I buy very few seeds anymore as I save last year's very best, and I know exactly what to expect come next season.

And you would be amazed by how much food such a small 'subsistence' garden can produce year-round: easily 3-4 times what a conventional monoculture could accomplish over its market-dictated growing season.

Nature's got it all figured out. All I do nurture my garden as an ecosystem...rather than an over-simplified, chemically-mediated buffer system.