Fiscal Treaty.The end of Democracy

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/t...ty-537900.html

The deal finalised in Brussels last night aims to impose German-style budget discipline on all EU member states.

So i vote to elect people to run my country but what will be the point if we have Germany telling what to do and what our tax rate should be.How is this democracy when the people we vote into power have no power and have their hands tied by German bondage straps.
A faceless person in Brussels does not care about my country so why let them run the show.
Are we really free when we all have to pay for reckless bankers.The government here is trying to push this through without a public vote as they know we will say off.So how are our dear leaders doing what the people of this country want.How is that democracy?
And this goes for all the other countrys signing over their countrys to German rule.
Sieg Heil mein fuerer Merkal

[eisenkopf]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/t...ty-537900.html


So i vote to elect people to run my country but what will be the point if we have Germany telling what to do and what our tax rate should be.How is this democracy when the people we vote into power have no power and have their hands tied by German bondage straps.
A faceless person in Brussels does nopt care about my country so why let them run the show.
Are we really free when we all have to pay for reckless bankers.The government here is trying to push this through without a public vote as they know we will say off.So how are our dear leaders doing what the people of this country want.How is that democracy?
And this goes for all the other countrys signing over their countrys to German rule.
Sieg Heil mein fuerer Merkal

Could you make up your mind who is controlling Ireland now? The Führerin Merkel, or some faceless person in Brussels?

[Tiberios]

Could you make up your mind who is controlling Ireland now? The Führerin Merkel, or some faceless person in Brussels?

I thought it was the IMF.

[Eskali]

"German Style" i fail to see how they will control your economy when the EU is simply adopting their successful practices. You voted for leaders that partake in the EU.

Are we really free

No, welcome to reality.

[Ahlerich]

oh not again.. it has been decided to implemet rules and automatism whn it comes to government debt. ireland decided to keep an eye on increasing debt. what has that to do with nazi germany attacking and occupying countries 70 years ago?
do you not see a benefit in your country not taking more debt then they can stomach? if ireland only would have made the decision would you oppose it?

[Admiral Piett]

Prussian virtues still have some merit then.

[hellheaven1987]

Apartly UK and Czech Republic decide they would against the main direction of EU, again.

Twenty-five of the EU's 27 member states have agreed to join a fiscal treaty to enforce budget discipline.

The Czech Republic and the UK refused to sign up. UK Prime Minister David Cameron said his government would act if the treaty threatened UK interests.

He still has "legal concerns" about the use of EU institutions in enforcing the fiscal treaty, he said.

The Czechs cited "constitutional reasons" for their refusal, France's President Nicolas Sarkozy said.

Czech President Vaclav Klaus, a Eurosceptic, may be reluctant to sign the treaty, analysts say.

The goal is much closer co-ordination of budget policy across the EU to prevent excessive debts accumulating.

Germany - the eurozone's biggest lender and most powerful economy - was particularly keen to get a binding treaty adopted to enforce budget rules.

The treaty will empower the European Court of Justice to monitor compliance and impose fines on rule-breakers.

The treaty also spells out the enhanced role of the European Commission in scrutinising national budgets.

The Czech Republic is not yet in the euro, but like the other new EU member states it is committed to joining.

European Union leaders also discussed ways to stimulate economic growth despite the stringent austerity budgets in many countries - and focused on how to reduce unemployment across the eurozone.

Source

[Denny Crane!]

Damn right we did. The EU can continue to sink itself without us.

[Astaroth]

Damn right we did. The EU can continue to sink itself without us.

What's wrong with budget discipline?

[Ahlerich]

What's wrong with budget discipline?

the anglo saxon idea is spend more to generate more growth that outgrows the rising interest payment for debt. when that fails there can only be one solution. spend even more by taking more debt to generate more growth that outgrows the rising interest payment for debt.

i think danny is just happy that england says "no".

[Denny Crane!]

What's wrong with budget discipline?

The bad thing is centralised control and not letting things fail that should fail. Europe should never have tried an integrated currency on such a large scale with such varied economies, it has failed and badly but no one wants to let it go and now they want to try a crappy financial tax which France has already done and will bring in a gargantuan whopping 1 million a year!

But no for sure lets give more control to the thing that has failed already. Great idea.

the anglo saxon idea is spend more to generate more growth that outgrows the rising interest payment for debt. when that fails there can only be one solution. spend even more by taking more debt to generate more growth that outgrows the rising interest payment for debt.

i think danny is just happy that england says "no".

I'm sorry but you obviously don't have a damn clue what you are talking about since this is the exact opposite of what the current UK government is espousing and doing, it seems you have read the opposition shadow governments text instead of what is actually happening in the UK.

Jesus man, read then post. Don't post then read.

[Principe Alessandro]

The bad thing is centralised control and not letting things fail that should fail. Europe should never have tried an integrated currency on such a large scale with such varied economies, it has failed and badly but no one wants to let it go and now they want to try a crappy financial tax which France has already done and will bring in a gargantuan whopping 1 million a year!

But no for sure lets give more control to the thing that has failed already. Great idea.

The problem isn't the currency that is affecting the national budgets but the national budgets that are affecting the currency.

There never was an united organism with the task to control the government budgets.

I don't understand why you blame EU for something that was generated by the excessive expenditures of the national governments.

[Alucard31]

I love how nowtodays every commission is marked as the end of "democracy".

And what the ? Union just want economic consolidation, not a "german" empire. It's impossible to do so since Germany is not the dominant power of the EU, and EU is not an empire.

Not to mention that in the EU, they do care about other nations' economics, since the it is based on economical coordinance.

I guess you just mixed up some situations.

[ivan_the_terrible]

we have Germany telling what to do and what our tax rate should be.How is this democracy when the people we vote into power have no power and have their hands tied by German bondage straps.
A faceless person in Brussels does not care about my country so why let them run the show
.....
And this goes for all the other countrys signing over their countrys to German rule.
Sieg Heil mein fuerer Merkal

Brussels is in Germany?!

Sneaky Germans...already annexing their EU client-states!

[Sphere]

And in related news, 1930's style austerity in the face of economic depression is ...

A.) Reassuring investors, driving down unemployment and growing the European economy
or
B.) Frightening bond markets ,driving up unemployment, and and creating shrinking economies

There is merit to counter-cyclical government policy, even if it is politically unpopular. Hopefully over on that side of the Atlantic you guys figure it out sooner rather than later.

[Astaroth]

And in related news, 1930's style austerity in the face of economic depression is ...

A.) Reassuring investors, driving down unemployment and growing the European economy
or
B.) Frightening bond markets ,driving up unemployment, and and creating shrinking economies

There is merit to counter-cyclical government policy, even if it is politically unpopular. Hopefully over on that side of the Atlantic you guys figure it out sooner rather than later.

What should happen:

• Good economic situation --> save money, decrease debts, spend less etc.
• Bad economic situation --> spend money, get the economy running again

What does happen:

• Good economic situation --> everyone wants money, politicians want to be re-elected, old people want higher pensions, poor people want more benefits --> tons of money gets spent
• Bad economic situation --> more money is spent

Result: huge debts

[Ahlerich]

And in related news, 1930's style austerity in the face of economic depression is ...

A.) Reassuring investors, driving down unemployment and growing the European economy
or
B.) Frightening bond markets ,driving up unemployment, and and creating shrinking economies

There is merit to counter-cyclical government policy, even if it is politically unpopular. Hopefully over on that side of the Atlantic you guys figure it out sooner rather than later.

true that "austerity only" was fatal in the 30s. thats why we are bailing out banks and nations since 2008

[Denny Crane!]

And in related news, 1930's style austerity in the face of economic depression is ...

A.) Reassuring investors, driving down unemployment and growing the European economy
or
B.) Frightening bond markets ,driving up unemployment, and and creating shrinking economies

There is merit to counter-cyclical government policy, even if it is politically unpopular. Hopefully over on that side of the Atlantic you guys figure it out sooner rather than later.

Except Britain is the perfect counter example to this. Europe is dragging our economy back into recession but we're borrowing at historically low rates otherwise we WOULD be the next Portugal without that confidence.

[Ahlerich]

Except Britain is the perfect counter example to this. Europe is dragging our economy back into recession but we're borrowing at historically low rates otherwise we WOULD be the next Portugal without that confidence.

thats interconnected though right?

germany also borrows at historical low level. the reason is the fear of the eurozone collapse and that most countries are too "unsave" right now for an investment.

the confidence in the switzerland, uk and germany is so much better just because the confidence for most other eu countries is so much lower.

why is europe draging the uk into recession and not germany? (i really dont know)

[Denny Crane!]

thats interconnected though right?

germany also borrows at historical low level. the reason is the fear of the eurozone collapse and that most countries are too "unsave" right now for an investment.

the confidence in the switzerland, uk and germany is so much better just because the confidence for most other eu countries is so much lower.

why is europe draging the uk into recession and not germany? (i really dont know)

The UK isn't in recession like Germany YET. The worry is that the entire of Europe is going into a double dip because of the continuing crisis.

The UK has enough debt that means it is not comparable to Germany in the slightest but more comparable to troubled countries, we can't borrow because we are safe though the size of our economy does help towards that but because investors trust that the UK is committed to reducing our fiscal deficit and no one but a fool believes that our economy would shrink purely based on a 4 year reduction of government spending. The fact remains that we export more to Ireland than to Brazil and China combined so imagine what that means if you throw in the rest of Europe and plunge them into a crisis, our exports shrink, our financial services take a hit and surprise surprise these are the very things that have shown signs of contraction and risk 2 consecutive quarters of contraction.