Elephants - worth it?

[Sarmatian]

After decades of fending off, rather desperately, attacks from AH and Saka, my Baktrian kingdom finally grew and expanded and now I'm able to fight back.

Among other interesting troops, I've noticed elephants and I'm wondering, like the title says, are they worth the cost???

Armoured variant cost almost as a full stack in recruitment cost and upkeep!!! I've fought against them in India and while they can do considerable damage, they die rather easily if attacked properly by a decent number of skirmishers armed with javelins. Slingers can hurt them, too and there's always danger of them running amok and destroying your entire battle plan...

What are your experiences?

[kostas84]

Elephants can win you a ton of victories if you use them correctly, especially against Melee cavalry, Generals and Phalanx Infantry that the Diadochi factions, such as Arche Seleukeia, Ptolemies, Pontus, etc... use.

I know RSII is different than EB, but the same principle applies, elephants got me 500 kills in a single battle once in RSII, in Large Unit Size.

They cost a lot, but they are OP when supported properly and used properly.

One of the reasons Hannibal lost in his fight against Rome is because he misused his Elephants, he charged them head on and relied on their success too much, this isnt what you do.

[Entropy Judge]

In general, I would say no (although that is due at least in part to my not being able to use them well, much like chariots). If you can afford elephants, you should be able to afford things like Baktrian Medium Cavalry and Cataphracts. Frankly, any time I look at something that costs as much as 5 other great units that I know how to use, I have to consider whether the one unit is really so much better than having 5 separate units, and in the case of elephants, I can't see that as being the case.

One of the reasons Hannibal lost in his fight against Rome is because he misused his Elephants, he charged them head on and relied on their success too much, this isnt what you do.

Actually, that is how you use elephants. They're difficult to control and maneuver, so they would simply be lined up and charged directly into the enemy lines. Commanders would have liked to be able to plow into a line from the flank, but conditions were rarely so favourable as to allow an army to set up a signficant force on the flank of its opponent without the opponent being able to guard against it.

[kostas84]

If you charge ur elephants head on they will get raped by Javelins and all sorts of different missiles.

I prefer to engage the enemy infantry with mine, chase off missile units with cav and attack with my elephants to the side of the enemy line, their charge kills a lot of them and a few more attacks and the enemy routs. Easy peasy.

[Ferdiad]

Basically Elpephants are pussys in EB. They require too much micro to be worth the cost.

[Boriak]

Considering this is a thread about elephants being used against horse archers, we should adress this issue: how vulnerable are elephants to archer fire? We know javelins and lead bullets will kill them. What about arrows? If they are also effective, then elephants simply aren't worth the cost. If they are resilient to arrows, then you have yourself a giant pin-cushion for the enemy to deplete his ammo.

[Sarmatian]

They are resilient to arrows. I've had several archers units (half of them shooting fire arrows) shooting for some time and none was killed, but this thread isn't just about elephants vs horse archers.

It's a simple cost-benefit analysis - can they benefit more than they cost? At this moment, I have trouble believing one unit of them would be as useful as 5-6 units of Kataphraktoi, who are also resilient to arrows. On the other hand, anything with armour and a shield is practically impervious to arrows from the front. I've fired all ammo from two archer units at one medium phalanx and killed none.

So, have anyone actually used elephants, even for RP purposes?

[athanaric]

AFAiK I've never seen an elephant being killed by arrows in EB. Unless your archers have a great advantage (like, shooting down from a mountain or a very high wall) they won't hurt the pachyderms. Of course, fire arrows can make them rout or run amok. Slingers aren't terribly effective either at hurting them.
Javelins are the weapon of choice against elephants. Other than that, they will get killed if struck by katapeltai bolts, a well-placed lancer charge (you'll need cavalry with underhand lances, preferrably the heavier types. Also, the cavalry will take losses, so don't try this with an FM), or if they get stuck in a suitably dense infantry formation, especially phalangites.

[Casual Tactician]

As everyone else here already said, elephants in EB aren't really worth their high cost and upkeep. If you want to use elephants yourself and don't mind the AI fielding some more of these grey pachyderms, then the best option is to modifiy their edu stats:

These are all five elephant units in EB:
;487 - Pilei Ya'ar Libim (African Forest Elephants)
;129 - Elephantes Hulaioi Liboukoi (African Forest Elephants)
;127 - Elephantes Liboukoi (African Bush Elephants)
;131 - Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi (Armoured Indian Elephants)
;130 - Elephantes Indikoi (Indian Elephants)

Example:

;487
type             african elephant forest
dictionary       african_elephant_forest      ; African Forest Elephants
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       Medium_1
soldier          hellenic_elephant_archer, 6, 6, 1
mount            elephant forest untowered
mount_effect     horse +3, chariot +3
attributes       sea_faring, can_run_amok, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted, hardy
formation        7, 9, 13, 13, 1, square
stat_health      1, 3 <-- add one point (or more if you like) to the animal's HP
stat_pri         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 0 ,0.1
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         5, 50, no, 0, 0, melee, other, blunt, none, 0 ,0.2
stat_sec_attr    area, ap, launching
stat_pri_armour  12, 6, 0, leather
stat_sec_armour  23, 7, leather
stat_heat        0
stat_ground      0, 0, -4, -3
stat_mental      8, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 10000, 2500, 270, 400, 10000 <-- lower (turns to recruit?,) cost and upkeep
ownership        egypt, numidia, saba, slave, seleucid

For more info on the edu have a look at Aradan's great edu guide.

You can also have a look here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=516731

[Durnaug]

Of course, fire arrows can make them...run amok.

This is the fun option. Nothing more satisfying than watching your AI opponent get trampled by his own elephants. I onced beseiged a fortified army that had several elephant units within the camp - chaos ensued when I called up my archers.

[edit] this might have been on another roman era mod - all my games are starting to blur into one now...

[Ferdiad]

Half the upkeep again and then theyre sustainable.

[Lansa]

I've got to the point in my AS campaign where I could field whole armies of elephants if I wanted, once you can afford them you'll never stop using them.

[Sarmatian]

I've tried using them and they're totally worth if you can afford them. They require a little micromanagement but they can turn the tide of the battle easily, just keep them away from javelins. They will make mince meat out of any phalanx formation and they're useful arrow cushions.

The only drawback (beside the cost and upkeep of course) for me is that you have to fight pesonally every single battle, even against mini-stacks to make sure one or two of your elephants aren't among the casualties.

[Menestheus]

If you have the funds available a unit of elephants can be a great addition to an army, especially the kataphraktoi. They can make a great cavalry screen and they excel at punching through the enemies lines to create gaps which can then be exploited by your assault troops. As one of the earlier posters said, ideally you would have them charge through the line, not just into it. I use this tactic when deploying the Casse's chariot units and I've found that once you get used to managing these units correctly they are almost unstoppable with their very high charge bonuses, only taking serious casualties if you allow them to become bogged down. Good management is key. While it is true that you can definitely do fine without elephants, they certainly do not hurt to have if you can afford them.

[Ferdiad]

Dont screen with elephants, screen them. Screening should be left for lighter less valuable troops, not the heaviest and slowest.

[Menestheus]

My bad, I didn't mean it in the sense of a cavalry screen for bogging them down, more that they are useful for wiping enemy cav units off the map if they engage them, wrong terminology on my part.