The Wardrobe of 1805 - A Uniform Modification - Version 2 Out with Prussians

[king of prussia]

Do you have any screenshots of prussian soldiers?.

[Prince of Essling]

Just a correction it is not {bicorn} it is {bicorne}

Like a lot of these things it does depends on which side of the pond you come from! And the headress for line infantry was not a true bicorne, it was a squashed version of a tricorne - see attached Kling drawing.

[ordoprinceps]

I stand corrected. so not a two cornered hat as oposed to a three cornered hat. Thanks for the info. Its good to be accurate. When I was a child I remeber learning a song "my hat it has three corners" refering to the hat of the time in history when to American colonist were in revolt. Natural mistake for someone learning the history of the Napoleonic period. Here is a youtube link in case my emil isnt clear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkQjg...eature=related.

PDG has great respect for your knowledge of this period so I bow to you sir. Perhaps you will teach me more in the future

[ordoprinceps]

Personally I prefer helmets

[ordoprinceps]

Prince Essling,
Are you the resident historian? I joined this site in 2006 because of RTW. NTW is so advanced in relation to RTW that I became addicted to it even though I had no previous interest in the Napoleonic period. Now I am fascinated by the period and I am eager to learn more.

[EmperorBatman999]

For Bicorn(e)s, I believe the term can be used quite flexibly and interchangably. I don't think either is more "right" than the other. Remember, grammar in the 18th/19th century wasn't standardised and mostly phonetic, so some people wrote Bicorn with and without an E.

As for screenshots; no I don't have any yet. I was busy last weekend. Obviously, real life takes priority over TWCenter. I thank you for your patience. Hopefully I won't get hung up next weekend.

[Prince of Essling]

Prince Essling,
Are you the resident historian? I joined this site in 2006 because of RTW. NTW is so advanced in relation to RTW that I became addicted to it even though I had no previous interest in the Napoleonic period. Now I am fascinated by the period and I am eager to learn more.

ordoprinceps

No I am not the resident historian (though some may tend to see me that way....). I am a longtime Napoleonic enthusiast (wargamer who go into all things to do with uniforms, troop organisation, battles, campaigns, etc etc...) who likes to help others get more out of the period .

[Swerg]

The Russians did attempt raise a number of militia units in 1805. Several hundred thousand, as I recall. However, they were unable to train them in time to actually be involved in the war, and they were disbanded in 1807, mostly having served in logistical roles.

Russian trainee soldiers did wear grey uniforms (the same style as regular infantry) with the 'nightcap' hats, also grey, with a white lace pompom on the end. Reserve units wore regular green uniforms, although they typically were simply issued whatever was at hand, resulting in a mix of 18th century and 'modern' uniforms.

The 'blankets' on the line infantry were actually greatcoats. The Russians tended to carry them everywhere, since they also served as blankets, tents, stretchers and whatever else you could do by typing a large piece of cloth to sticks and/or sitting under it. They would be removed prior to battle, if there was time, so the choice is really yours on that matter.

Infantry wore gaiters in summer, and boots in winter. The Russian shako was not, in fact, a 'stovepipe' shako, but widened slightly towards the top. Probably not a detail worth going to the effort of modeling, but I figured I would mention it.

Jaegers wore green trousers in winter, and white or grey in summer.

The pompom on the grenadiers was of a different style than the one you have, being similar to the 'caterpillar' crests on the tarlton helmets, but upright. It was also black, with NCO' having white tips. The same applies to the Guard regiments.

Grenadiers wore a brass grenade on the shako below the pompom's button.

Please fix the design on the Pavlovsk Grenadier's shakos, if you happen to have the time. That horrible art deco eagle bugs me so very much.

On the subject of the Guard regiments, they should have the brass double-eagle ornament on their shakos. And the unit should probably be renamed to 'Preobrazhensky Guard', since they're wearing the uniform of that regiment anyway. Also, to my knowledge, no unit of the Russian guard wore bearskins until after the Napoleonic Wars.

Likewise, the Lifeguard Hussars (and all Lifeguard regiments) should have the brass double-eagle shako ornament. At this point, the Guard Hussars had a blue jacket, which was switched to red in 1812. Their saddle blankets were blue as well, with gold trim.

Cuirassiers wore white trousers, not grey.

As a minor historical note, the Russian cuirassiers readopted the cuirass after 1807, I believe.


Here's a useful (contemporary) source for Russian uniforms:
http://www.memorandum.ru/viskowatov/T10/pic/index.php

It's in Russian, but the dates are easy to identify and Google Translate picks up on the text fairly well.

[EmperorBatman999]

There were a few things that I needed to sacrafice because they don't exist in the correct form in the game. I tried to get them as close to the sources.

I can't model or reskin clothing, so there were some corners that saddly needed cutting.

[Prince of Essling]

As a minor historical note, the Russian cuirassiers readopted the cuirass after 1807, I believe.

Here's a useful (contemporary) source for Russian uniforms:
http://www.memorandum.ru/viskowatov/T10/pic/index.php

It's in Russian, but the dates are easy to identify and Google Translate picks up on the text fairly well.

According to Viskowatov (translation by Mark Conrad - my emphasis):
"Beginning of 1812 — Cuirassier privates and NCOs are given black, iron cuirasses, lined around the edges with red woollen cord and consisting of two halves: the front or chest piece and the back. To the latter of these, at the shoulders, are fixed two support straps with black iron fittings in the form of scales, with brass end pieces fastening to two small brass buttons fixed to the front half. Officers same cuirasses but with brass scales, while musicians are not authorized them at all. From this time on, the thick plumage on officers’ helmets for parades is completely abolished, and officers of Cuirassier regiments are ordered to have gloves with gauntlets."

English translations of the text plus the "missing" textual volumes describing all of the clothing changes can be found on http://marksrussianmilitaryhistory.info/#Viskovatov

[Swerg]

@Emperor Batman
Ah. Well, I know there are a few mods out there that have the shako ornaments at least. They'd probably be willing to share, since they are a distinctly Russian feature.

For the pompom's for Russian infantry, I'd suggest stealing the one used by the Prussian foot guard. It's not 100% correct for the Russians, but it's fairly close.

@Prince of Esseling
Ah. I knew it was sometime after Austerlitz, but I couldn't remember exactly when.

[EmperorBatman999]

@Emperor Batman
Ah. Well, I know there are a few mods out there that have the shako ornaments at least. They'd probably be willing to share, since they are a distinctly Russian feature.

For the pompom's for Russian infantry, I'd suggest stealing the one used by the Prussian foot guard. It's not 100% correct for the Russians, but it's fairly close.

The thing is that I would need to move that certain pom pom into the Russian atlas. I could just make the Guards and Grenadiers use the Prussian atlas, but then the officers would need to lose the bicorns. I also want to keep the entire faction within the same atlas, or else the game needs to use more energy to use multiple atlasses in battle for a single faction. Also, I would've wanted the Pom Pom to be black, and not white. Perhaps I can find somebody to do this maybe. I will see if I have time to make any fixes possible on the weekend.

[ordoprinceps]

ordoprinceps

No I am not the resident historian (though some may tend to see me that way....). I am a longtime Napoleonic enthusiast (wargamer who go into all things to do with uniforms, troop organisation, battles, campaigns, etc etc...) who likes to help others get more out of the period .

PE,
I'll keep that in mind. Well I have a question you may be able to answer than. Did French Marines participate in the African campaign or before 1805?
O

[ordoprinceps]

The thing is that I would need to move that certain pom pom into the Russian atlas. I could just make the Guards and Grenadiers use the Prussian atlas, but then the officers would need to lose the bicorns. I also want to keep the entire faction within the same atlas, or else the game needs to use more energy to use multiple atlasses in battle for a single faction. Also, I would've wanted the Pom Pom to be black, and not white. Perhaps I can find somebody to do this maybe. I will see if I have time to make any fixes possible on the weekend.

EB,
First I love the Foreign legion mods! Thought you might want feedback. The Piedmontese Tirallieurs Du Po have no picture when you right click on the to check out unit details.

[Prince of Essling]

PE,
I'll keep that in mind. Well I have a question you may be able to answer than. Did French Marines participate in the African campaign or before 1805?
O

Please post these type of questions in the NTW General Discussion: Historical Research Section to save distractions in the mod thread.

If you mean the Marines of the Guard, they were not formed until 1804.

[ordoprinceps]

Sorry I will ask the question in the discussion thread. No I know the Guard Seaman where formed late and saw no action.

[ordoprinceps]

Am I allowed to ask a uniform question on this thread or does it have to be specifally about PDG's new art work?

[Prince of Essling]

Sorry I will ask the question in the discussion thread. No I know the Guard Seaman where formed late and saw no action.

Just to be absolutely clear the French had no Marines in the traditional sense (i.e. like those of the British). Marins in French translates to seamen;and Marine to Navy.
The function of marines was performed by regular infantry who were detached from their parent regiments and put aboard the ships.

Am I allowed to ask a uniform question on this thread or does it have to be specifally about PDG's new art work?

Yes if it is relevant otherwise you suddenly find the thread going off at a tangent!

[ordoprinceps]

Just to be absolutely clear the French had no Marines in the traditional sense (i.e. like those of the British). Marins in French translates to seamen;and Marine to Navy.
The function of marines was performed by regular infantry who were detached from their parent regiments and put aboard the ships.

Yes if it is relevant otherwise you suddenly find the thread going off at a tangent!

Thank you Prince,
I posted as you suggested in the discussion forum. I found a fair amount of basic info before posting my question there. I saw that many units went from various Marine names to infantry regiments from time to time.

[ordoprinceps]

Just to be absolutely clear the French had no Marines in the traditional sense (i.e. like those of the British). Marins in French translates to seamen;and Marine to Navy.
The function of marines was performed by regular infantry who were detached from their parent regiments and put aboard the ships.

Yes if it is relevant otherwise you suddenly find the thread going off at a tangent!

Since this a modding thread talking about one of my favorite modders on this site (PDG) I would ask about French Marine uniform skins.PDG does beautiful work and I would love to see authentic Marine skins. Swiss Halbredier AUM 2.2 has a great looking unit but a totally different one is offered by LME. Are they both right? I welcome input from you sir, lordargento and of course PDG.