Siege Tactics

[El Cid99]

Hi,

Just a quick question about siege defense:

I normally use a fairly standard strategy: Archers kill the enemy as they approach, then heavy infantry take their place as enemy reaches the wall, and I create a kill sack/ mosh pit inside the gate.

HOWEVER:

I just watched Troy (mainly to see Diane Kruger naked ) and in the siege of Troy, the Trojans actually fight outside their walls, which allow the archers ON the walls to massacre the Greeks (much to the annoyance of Brad Pitt). I was wondering if this is a good tactic, especially if the defending side is heavy on archers and lacking in infantry, as this allows for endless archer fire on the attacking troops (especially in Kingdoms in which missiles seem to be a lot more effective, and there appears to be a new tower upgrade: "Machine Gun Towers", which shoot deadly arrows at a rate of about three per second).

So, ideas?

[_Elysium_]

Depends on the situation really. I prefer to put archers and shock troops on the walls, so the archers get extended range and the shock troops can massacre the enemies that make it up the ladders towers. If the enemy has alot of missile units though, they'll just attack your infantry outside the walls that are waiting to engage the enemy. The enemy missiles will probably switch to loose formations aswell.

If the attacking force is mainly infantry though, fighting outside the walls sounds like a good idea. Getting your infantry in position before the enemy reaches them could be a problem though.

My preferred method of defence, which I've used numerous times in my current campaign, is to attack. Move cavalry units to the enemy flanks, far enough away so as not to entice a response, then charge them as they attack. Your archers can rip them apart at range, shock/heavy infantry can fight them on the walls, and your cavalry can charge the rears of those waiting to ascend the ladders/towers.

The AI tends to clump itself into one big group when attacking defences. Given the close proximity of the units, a single charge from a few cavalry units can rout the whole army. I know. I've done it multiple times against stronger forces. Its a good way to get Heroic Victories aswell.

[Bringer Of Storms]

Every time I fight a siege defense, I put infantry on the walls with the archers. Then I take my entire cavalry force and charge them out of the protection of the walls and into the enemy's siege equipment. With a powerful enough charge, this will surely break them. Even if they're spearmen, they wont react as quickly as they normally would, and they won't brace.

Once you charge their siege equipment, they retreat, and your archers and towers shoot them. They bring more troops of for the siege equipment, rinse and repeat. Although, this will probably only work on cavalry strong factions. Reasons being, your cavalry needs to be tougher than theirs if they bring theirs up to defend against yours, or just more plentiful. Because their infantry and archers will jump into the fray, and surround your cav if you don't maneuver them well.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

M2TW sieges are not real history In any case, here is an example of what you can do with a besieged force of mainly ranged units and siege engines, as long as you have a couple of units of spearmen/pikemen to protect the siege engines. It can be quite effective. So effective, it must be a bug ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myA8biClTRc

[Sweger]

When defending a Citadel i tend to let the enemy breach the first two outer "defense layers", this worked exceptionally well when I was playing England with their better archers with superior range. While the enemy had to force through two gates while getting ponded by arrows. The enemy normally lost 20-30 % once they reached the innermost gate. On that point, they were an easy match for my heavy infantry. If you also flame the arrows, you could make some units lose their morale. That's one way.

[Willowran]

id keep everyone inside. i never fight atop the walls, but if you dont have a lot of inf dont send em outside regardless of number of archers. your inf ould just get slaughtered, then your archers when their units breached the top of the wall. youd be better suited for abandoning the wall once they reach it, then choking their army in the streets with your inf as they hit the center, and fill that center with archers. rain of death in close quarters. only downside is you'll likely lose at least SOME infantry to your own arrows

[Aeratus]

Hi,

Just a quick question about siege defense:

I normally use a fairly standard strategy: Archers kill the enemy as they approach, then heavy infantry take their place as enemy reaches the wall, and I create a kill sack/ mosh pit inside the gate.

HOWEVER:

I just watched Troy (mainly to see Diane Kruger naked ) and in the siege of Troy, the Trojans actually fight outside their walls, which allow the archers ON the walls to massacre the Greeks (much to the annoyance of Brad Pitt). I was wondering if this is a good tactic, especially if the defending side is heavy on archers and lacking in infantry, as this allows for endless archer fire on the attacking troops (especially in Kingdoms in which missiles seem to be a lot more effective, and there appears to be a new tower upgrade: "Machine Gun Towers", which shoot deadly arrows at a rate of about three per second).

So, ideas?

The problem is that in Troy, the Trojans were already positioned outside the wall, but you can't do that in Medieval 2.

[PrestigeX]

I usually sacrifice a unit or two of cavalry, to run out an attack -- stop a ram, or stop a ladder, etc.

Its kind of cheap-out because it confuses the AI, and then whichever piece of equipment actually reaches my wall / gate -- all the A.I. forces try and rush through that point.

Using infantry outside the walls, like in Troy -- IDK if that would be effective, your archers prolly kill lot of your own men too!

[Aeratus]

I've never tried fighting outside the wall in a large scale siege battle when on the AI attacks. I would imagine that it's similar to being on a hill and having your archers shoot from the hill while your melee units are in front, except that you have less time to position your men but you also have towers assisting the archers. In general, I take fewer losses by crushing the blob that tries to squeeze through the gates, than when fighting with archers on a hill.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

I've never tried fighting outside the wall in a large scale siege battle when on the AI attacks. I would imagine that it's similar to being on a hill and having your archers shoot from the hill while your melee units are in front, except that you have less time to position your men but you also have towers assisting the archers. In general, I take fewer losses by crushing the blob that tries to squeeze through the gates, than when fighting with archers on a hill.

Sure if you have enough spearmen inside the gate and the attacker has no siege engines to blow your walls apart, that should work. However, if you have few or no spearmen but lots of ranged units and siege engines and especially if your enemy has siege engines and good infantry, your method would not work. Then fighting out of the walls could work like nothing else. In fact, it can work out so well that as I said I think it is broken.

Check out this quick video I just made. Both armies have equal florin value, but check the result:

[Sitalkes]

Great video, watch those men fly!!! How do you get the artillery to shoot over the walls instead of at them? When I try this against stone walls, with trebuchet or catapault (catapault is worst) , nearly all the shots hit the wall, not the troops behind the wall. Is it just a matter of finding the perfect distance from the wall?

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Great video, watch those men fly!!! How do you get the artillery to shoot over the walls instead of at them? When I try this against stone walls, with trebuchet or catapault (catapault is worst) , nearly all the shots hit the wall, not the troops behind the wall. Is it just a matter of finding the perfect distance from the wall?

Based on experience, it seems the enemy rather has to be a certain distance from the wall. If they are too close, then the chances of hitting the wall increase. If some of the defenders sally out, the besiegers tend to hold back, so then you can hit them with the artillery. That's how it works. This behaviour varies from mod to mod and depends on the besiegers having artillery themselves. If not, they will not move back. Catapults cannot shoot over walls, they either have to go out of the gate or else you can use them only inside the settlement.

[Sitalkes]

Actually Catapaults and Ballistas can shoot over walls if they are low enough (eg wooden pallisade type) or the artillery is far enough away and set to "use fire". Ballistas can be really deadly if you can get one to shoot over a wooden palisade wall into the flank of an enemy unit waiting behind a gate.

[Sursion]

I sally out to attack sometimes. Especially when the assaulting faction starts bringing catapaults or trebuchets up to my wall. A quick cavalry charge will ruin that plan.