No Papacy?

[SicilianVespers]

I just downloaded the beta, and the SP campaign patch, and I really like what I see. Great work!

I was wondering why you guys didn't use the Senate as the Papacy?

It seems very strange to not have the Papacy meddling into everything, especially from a Sicilian faction players point of view.

It seems like you could make the Senate a Catholic super faction, for the major Catholic States. It would be very cool to get a Papal mission to re-cature Jerusalem from the infidel, or for the Siculo-Normans to drive the Saracens out of Sicily.

I think it would add alot to the mod.

Sorry if this has already been covered, I haven't followed the mod for a quite some time.

[Methoz]

Kingdom of Bohemia ruuulllezzz !
Noting papal state

[alpaca]

We might replace the Teutons with the Papacy to bring it back, not sure though.

[Atterdag]

Bohemia replaced the Papacy some time ago.

[ZuluKingOfTheDwarfPeople]

So that is what happened to the Papacy, I am really surprised you did not include the Papacy. It is a good mod and everything but for me that really dulls the game a lot...

[hody]

Papacy as a playable faction - or even as a faction is historically not accurate. Papal states were one of minor italian states, with power and influence comparable to other city states in the region. Papacy itself was primary an institution without any connection to the local italian folk or without any feudal rule over compact area. As you may know there were times when Pope even did not have his seat in Rome but in Avignon (France). The true is Pope as significant authority has to be presented ingame someway though, but this can be probably done without papacy as a faction. Robert would tell you guys more..

[SicilianVespers]

Papacy as a playable faction - or even as a faction is historically not accurate. Papal states were one of minor italian states, with power and influence comparable to other city states in the region. Papacy itself was primary an institution without any connection to the local italian folk or without any feudal rule over compact area. As you may know there were times when Pope even did not have his seat in Rome but in Avignon (France). The true is Pope as significant authority has to be presented ingame someway though, but this can be probably done without papacy as a faction. Robert would tell you guys more..

You can't be serious?

Have you ever heard of the Guelfs and Ghibellines? The papacy had direct rule over the Papal States of Rome, Pentapolis and Ravenna. The German Emperor was technically the vassal of the Popes.

If it had not been for the Papacy, Italy would have been united in 1200 by a Sicilian Monarchy. The Papacy effectively ruined my country by excommunications of our Kings and so called crusades which exterminated our Royal family. The Norman Kingdom of Sicily, one of the most powerful and wealthy Kingdoms in Europe, was plunged into a 100 year civil war after the Sicilian Vespers.

The Popes were in a way, the defacto Kings of Italy.

The mod loses alot by not including the three way struggle between Emperor, Pope and Sicily.

Bohemia was just one of the Stem Duchies in 1072, it has no greater right to be included than Saxony or Bavaria.

[Atterdag]

As you may know there were times when Pope even did not have his seat in Rome but in Avignon (France)

And in Pisa.

But SicilianVespers, I said roughly the same thing when the discussion begun. I however sold my soul to the Bohemian warwagons.

[hody]

Bohemia was much more influential in other centuries (13th and 14th) and during hussite wars in 15th century. About the Pope: Yes there were great popes, but it was the power of the word not sword (as you btw noticed) what they used. As you said technically they ruled over whole christian world, but for most of the time vere unable to field their own amry. And even in their own territory /papal states/ the power was in hands of local princes. We dont want to get rid of papacy though, we only decided to present it another way - not as a faction.

[Dirty Peasant]

And btw what would Papacy have?They didnt have any unique units,its territory was small and "for most of the time vere unable to field their own amry"!

[SicilianVespers]

And btw what would Papacy have?They didnt have any unique units,its territory was small and "for most of the time vere unable to field their own amry"!

I would like to see the Papacy start with the Papal States (1 province of the current map?). To start they probably would field a Papal Guard Infantry, Roman Nobles, Masnada, perhaps Milites Majores, Milites Minores, but they could also have many units from the various communes in the North (via hidden resources), like Tuscan Knights, Lombard Infantry, Genoese crossbowmen, Milanese Pavesari, etc.

You have to remember, the communes in the North were mostly Guelf, and looked to the Papacy for leadership in their stuggle against the empire. Many of the cities were ruled by Bishops.

I am not quite following the 30,000 population argument? Sure Palermo had a Population of over 300,000, but 30,000 is probably huge in comparision to what the villages in northern and central Europe had around the year 1000.

Anyway, you need something in Italy, so Sicily doesn't steam-roll over Italy.

[militiaman]

It's not a question of importance, IMO at least. I would be willing to help anyone trying to add the Papal States back in as a faction for a sub-mod, but of course they require the modding knowledge to do so (my help would be mainly giving you our old files for the Papal States so you don't have to redo them). As alpaca said we wouldn't necessarily have to replace Bohemia either, both the Crusader States and Teutonic Order aren't used at the moment.

[SicilianVespers]

It's not a question of importance, IMO at least. I would be willing to help anyone trying to add the Papal States back in as a faction for a sub-mod, but of course they require the modding knowledge to do so (my help would be mainly giving you our old files for the Papal States so you don't have to redo them). As alpaca said we wouldn't necessarily have to replace Bohemia either, both the Crusader States and Teutonic Order aren't used at the moment.

I have added the Papal States to daud.fr's sub-mod (for my own use), using the Crusaders (the faction shield suited the Papacy). It's just a quick test, gave them Latium, a leader and heir, both with small armies.

I also tried making it a superfaction for the Catholics, but everyone went to war when I attacked Hungary as Bohemia, so I doubt that will work, or it will take alot of time to get it to work correctly.

I wouldn't mind taking a look at the Papal files?

[alpaca]

If the Papacy replaces anyone, it should probably be the Teutons (simply because they are the least progressed faction, and probably could be worked into the Crusader States somehow).

[Rex Invictus]

papacy, not papacy whatever. ROME IS NOT EVEN A CITY!

[hody]

estimated population of 30,000 AD 1000. Compare it to the capital of former empire, where about 1,000,000 people lived.

[Glycerius]

If we allow that 40,000 is the most a RTW city can support, Rome's size is fine. It needs a garrison and more buildings, though.

[SicilianVespers]

I used the Crusaders because the faction colors and shield was good match, but it could easily be switched over to the Teutons. Do you have completed Papal shields/banners?

I saw you guys already had Papal entries in the names.txt, so I added them to descr_names while I was at lunch & every thing loaded up fine. I am not too sure what to do about the family tree? I was thinking to have the reigning Pope as the faction leader, with 2 or three daughter, who would be married off to the various Roman clans?

[alpaca]

The papacy was in the mod until some time ago, so it'd not be a huge problem to put it in again, provided you have enough time.
You'd maybe want to join our team for that though, so if you are interested, drop me a PM

[militiaman]

I also tried making it a superfaction for the Catholics, but everyone went to war when I attacked Hungary as Bohemia, so I doubt that will work, or it will take alot of time to get it to work correctly.

Interesting. What exactly was wrong with this? Also, what factions did you make as sub-factions to the Papacy?

As alpaca said, it used to be a fully working faction, so we have all the banners and icons necessary for it, as well as unit skins and units (though I guess you added the italian city militia and ribaldi back in). And yes, please contact alpaca and myself so we can maybe work together a bit closer.