Myth of Christian Perfection

[Ó Cathasaigh]

The following is taken from a book called Knowing Aslan written by Thomas Williams.

If the church seems full of hypocrites, it's because of a common misunderstanding of what church is about. People tend to think Christians should be better than others and have their lives together. But as someone has aptly said, the church is not a showplace for saints; it's a hospital for sinners. It's not a place for good people to strut their stuff, but a place for forgiven people to help one another draw closer to God. Christians are far from perfect. We have turned back to God, but we still slip into selfish mode.

[mongoose]

I think the problem is that the sinners aren't healing, they're just at Church because they think that they have to be there. They walk in sinful, and they leave just as sinful as they were before. To them, it's only a meaningless thing that you must endure inorder to please your friends and relatives.

(I'm not going to make any general statements, that only applies to alot of the church goers I know)

[Shaun]

Well where i am from the church is more like the rich people showing off thier new Merc/BMW.

And everyone knows that Christians are not perfect, nor muslims, atheists, jews ect. Humans can never be perfect.

[Søren]

To quote you from the thread you created this for so as not to get off topic in that one, CH :

so as to not get off topic on religion, i've created another topic on why Christians are not indeed Christ and should not be expected to be as forgiving.

Christians should not be expected to be as forgiving - no one is perfect.

However, inability to reach perfection does not mean that people should not try and do what is a 'perfect' action.

Christians (and anybody, for that matter) should forgive - but cannot (unless through God (according to biblical doctorine)).

Presuming you would agree with the concept of absolute depravity, that is.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Perfection is only such a superlative for the one reason that people strive to get as close as possible to it. No, humans aren't perfect. Manichaeism (I think) states that humans were born immature, and thus were given problems to mature over time. However, the Church has a duty to make people more like Christ. Even though they will never be Christ, they will strive to be as close to His perfection as possible.

[Tigran of Sasoun]

Do you guys know that Christianity is not about being perfect? Its a religion of sinners who ask for forgivness. Its not about a religion of perfect people who do not commit sin, far from it. It is a religion of forgivness.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

That... kinda was the gist of this thread. Christ died for our sins, so of course we are not perfect.

[Erik]

Nobody expects christians to be perfect.

But they are expected to at least TRY to live by their own rules.
If they aren't even trying they are hypocrits.

This discussion was brought up by a discussion about the death penalty:
Should christians oppose the death penalty?
I think yes because IIRC the Bible is pretty clear about this.
But according to Hicks a good christian can be in favour of the death penalty because christians "aren't perfect".
But then christians can willingly choose a life of sin, and they don't have to feel responsible for any of their actions, because they can always say "I'm going to sin/steel/rape/murder/etc. because I'm not perfect and Jesus wil always forgive me so I don't have to feel responsible".
And that just sounds extremely hypicrit to me if you also claim to be a follower of Christ.

[Søren]

This discussion was brought up by a discussion about the death penalty:
Should christians oppose the death penalty?
I think yes because IIRC the Bible is pretty clear about this.
But according to Hicks a good christian can be in favour of the death penalty because christians "aren't perfect".
But then christians can willingly choose a life of sin, and they don't have to feel responsible for any of their actions, because they can always say "I'm going to sin/steel/rape/murder/etc. because I'm not perfect and Jesus wil always forgive me so I don't have to feel responsible".
And that just sounds extremely hypicrit to me if you also claim to be a follower of Christ.

I agree entirly.

Since we seem to be taking the discussion of the ethics of this under a Christian mindset to this thread, I'll quote myself from the old one :

You have to think, a person has just murdered another....stolen the life of another. Commited the ultimate sin in the eyes of man. I don't think people who havn't been effected by it shoul have a say in the sentinceing, they have no idea what it's like, and in my opinion are irrational in their "we'll give him 25 years to change, then he'll be free again".

From a Christian point of view, punishment for the sake of punishment should only be administered by God. i.e. one should not judge - putting a quantative value to someone else's 'sin'. Thus punishment should not be through putting a value to a misdemenour for the sake of the punishment - but rather by deciding on what would be the most beneficial result for society.

From a non-theistic point of view, the general consensus of society would be the only ones (for pragmatic reasons) allowed to judge what was 'right' or 'wrong' according to their perception of life. With no value greater than consensus (which is a power only for pragmatic reasons) punishment for the sake of punishment is illogical.

Presumably you'ld take the Chrisitan view, but either way, you should come to what is for the purposes of this debate - a similar conclusion.

[the Black Prince]

i didn't expect christians to be perfect...

but i'd at least expect them not to the very opposite of what jesus told them to do...
i'm thinking here particularly on the passages about judging others, and the passages about dealing with the log in your eye before commenting about the twig in someone elses removed as it brings the thread off-topic - Farnan

[shenmueguru]

That's what I have a problem with - Christians who say God hates people. He doesn't, he loves people. He just hates sin.

Are people reffering to this incident? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gubiP3mP3Ds

[Ó Cathasaigh]

But then christians can willingly choose a life of sin, and they don't have to feel responsible for any of their actions, because they can always say "I'm going to sin/steel/rape/murder/etc. because I'm not perfect and Jesus wil always forgive me so I don't have to feel responsible".

Did I ever say that I enjoy hating murderers? Did I ever say I enjoy sin? No one realy wants to sin, but everyone does it. And jesus WILL always forgive me if I ask him to.

but rather by deciding on what would be the most beneficial result for society.

Which would be the removal from society forever of murderers etc. Saves money too. Everyone in society is benifited.

That's what I have a problem with - Christians who say God hates people. He doesn't, he loves people. He just hates sin.

Precisely. Have you ever knowticed that when we create something, we tend to fall in love with it? Some artists cannot get themselves to sell their masterpiece, parents love the children they create, etc. This is how God feels about us. But God does feel abandoned when you turn your back on him. How would you feel if your child basicaly said "screw you" and left forever?

[Erik]

Did I ever say that I enjoy hating murderers? Did I ever say I enjoy sin? No one realy wants to sin, but everyone does it.

No, but you did say you were in favour of the death penalty.
So you made a conscious choice to support something that goes against the chrisitian values.
And if you can do that, why not just throw all christian rules and values out of the window?

And jesus WILL always forgive me if I ask him to.

Jesus might forgive you for your sins, but I don't think this is ment to be an excuse to sin.
That's realy the main point I tried to make.

[Disciple]

take also the following doctrine though
jesus said only god has the right to judge
jesus said if you judge others you yourself will be judged harshly
christians condemning anyone are judging them
only god can call someone a sinner
god hates fags people are all going to hell (and i'm free to say that condemnation because i'm not a christian)

If you're reffering to "Judge not lest ye be judged.", that's taken out of context. Like the parable of the man with the plank in his eye telling the man with the speck in his eye to remove the speck. The guy with the plank has no right to tell the guy with the speck to remove it because he's as bad if not worse than the man with the speck.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

therefore no christian should ever criticise the sins of others

Wrong.

Did I ever say I enjoy sin? No one realy wants to sin, but everyone does it. And jesus WILL always forgive me if I ask him to.

If you have a repentant heart you'll be forgiven. Repentance means saying sorry and then doing an about face and striving to quit.

No, but you did say you were in favour of the death penalty.
So you made a conscious choice to support something that goes against the chrisitian values.
And if you can do that, why not just throw all christian rules and values out of the window?

You have to be ignorant to think the Bible is against the death penalty.

There are plenty of instances where people have been stoned and put to death for breaking the law. The problem is that sometimes we can take it too far. The case of Jesus confronting the Pharisees attempting to stone Mary comes to mind.

Homosexuality is a man-made perversion of God's original plan. A practicing homosexual is no better than an alcoholic who can't stop drinking.

Minor troll removed - imb39

[MaximiIian]

the man with the plank in his eye telling the man with the speck in his eye to remove the speck. The guy with the plank has no right to tell the guy with the speck to remove it because he's as bad if not worse than the man with the speck.

How the hell do get a plank lodged in your eye?
Assuming the "plank" is a plank of wood.

[sephodwyrm]

The evil Muslim shall reply to the helpless Christian man

Did I ever say that I enjoy hating murderers? Did I ever say I enjoy sin? No one realy wants to sin, but everyone does it. And jesus WILL always forgive me if I ask him to.

Jesus Christ is in no position to forgive you of your sins. He acts as an extension of God's power and God will be the sole judge on the judgment day. Dream on, puny one. God's hand will be hard against those who hath asked for justice, and merciful to those that hath asked for mercy. Sinning is asking for justice, fin. I sin because I want hell. I perform good deeds because I want heaven. That's the bottom line. Get over it.

Which would be the removal from society forever of murderers etc. Saves money too. Everyone in society is benifited.

Dealing out justice to someone perceived guilty is the society's way of ensuring some semblance of law and order. A society of justice would not see anyone committing sins because every member of society is catered to. But someone committing sins could be seen as a result of society's mishandling of individuals. Most murderers murder not because they like it. But they did murder, and hence society carries the blame on itself to murder the murderer and let the blame fall on every member of society and remind the participants of the society of the shortcomings they have. Saving money is not a goal of execution. I might as well not buy the X-Box 360 to save more money. Prevention of future sins and commitment to a society of justice should be the true goal of a religious and spiritual person.

Precisely. Have you ever knowticed that when we create something, we tend to fall in love with it? Some artists cannot get themselves to sell their masterpiece, parents love the children they create, etc. This is how God feels about us. But God does feel abandoned when you turn your back on him. How would you feel if your child basicaly said "screw you" and left forever?

Correction. Humans are nothing compared to the whole vastness of creation. Stop feeling to uppity mighty about yourself. God does not lose or gain anything if humans choose to submit or not. Fact is, praying is good for you. That's it. We're not praying so that God feels good. We're praying so that we may be reminded of our own spiritual weakness and hypocrisy. Remember that God is the Omnipotent, all knowing and all merciful, and taught us to pray such that it might be good to us. God is the ultra-liberal. We can say screw you to the ultimate liberal parent, and the parent will say I respect your choice child. We know this is basically asking for trouble. But we do it anyway. But remember that even the prodigal son got his share of inheritance prematurely and was welcomed as warmly as any other son when he regretted. The lesson to be learnt from that parable is that God is the ultra-liberal. God would not care if you choose look the other way. That's your choice. God will respect that choice and give you the end results.

Everything action we do is like a mini-prayer on itself. I feel tired, and therefore I sleep so that I would feel less tired when I wake up. If I don't then I'm basically "praying" to get more tired. Its like planting a tree. You put the seed into the soil and water it. That's basically praying for a tree to grow. But who grows the tree? Not you but God. You prayed for the tree to grow, and God will grow the tree. You "prayed" correctly for the tree to grow. If you "prayed" incorrectly by forgetting the water or forgetting to put the seed into the soil, or some other nuances, the tree will not grow.

God gave us free will. God knows all because God knows every single consequence and every alternative scenario. Therefore everything is somehow predestined since God knows all the possible outcomes, but we don't. We simply pray so that we can make the right ones. We can pray for forgiveness, but for Muslims, praying for mercy be bestowed to other people's is going to work better than praying for your own forgiveness.

[the Black Prince]

anyways
take also the following doctrine though
jesus said only god has the right to judge
jesus said if you judge others you yourself will be judged harshly
christians condemning anyone are judging them
only god can call someone a sinner

jesus also spoke out about hypocrits
jesus said let him who is without sin cast the first stone
jesus said deal with the log in your eye before you comment on the twig in someone elses
jesus on at least 2 occasions therefore stated only people free from sin have the right to criticise the sin in others
by the very premise of this thread, no one is free from sin
therefore no christian should ever criticise the sins of others

[Søren]

For the purposes of this thread, I will assume that God is existant and the Bible is true. The validity of those premises is something that can be discussed in other topics. In this thread, we should just discuss the merits of the Biblic viewpoint when taken within itself, IMO.

jesus said only god has the right to judge

Yes.

jesus said if you judge others you yourself will be judged harshly

Yes.

christians condemning anyone are judging them

Yes.

only god can call someone a sinner

Only God can judge someones sins. A statement of fact that 'someone is a sinner' is permissable.

In Biblical terms a 'sinner' is someone who has 'sinned'. According to Biblical doctorine everyone has 'sinned'. Thus to say someone has sinned is hardly a condemnation (incidentally, the apostles say it frequently by implication) - merely a statement of objective 'truth'.

Romans 5:12

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

jesus also spoke out about hypocrits
jesus said let him who is without sin cast the first stone
jesus said deal with the log in your eye before you comment on the twig in someone elses
jesus on at least 2 occasions therefore stated only people free from sin have the right to criticise the sin in others
by the very premise of this thread, no one is free from sin
therefore no christian should ever criticise the sins of others

No; it is wrong to criticise and be self-righteously hypo-critical about other's sin.

Criticising the sin itself (not the person) is a different matter.

Jesus might forgive you for your sins, but I don't think this is ment to be an excuse to sin.
That's realy the main point I tried to make.

Yes, you're exactly right there.

[Erik]

But if they do repentance they don't have to worry abuot a thing, right?

The only people they realy have to worry about is the mentally handicaped, 'cos if they can't pray for forgiveness they wil surely go to hell.

Ahhh. what a wonderfull religion, this Christianity

[danzig]

But if they do repentance they don't have to worry abuot a thing, right?

The only people they realy have to worry about is the mentally handicaped, 'cos if they can't pray for forgiveness they wil surely go to hell.

Ahhh. what a wonderfull religion, this Christianity

If you believe in all the god stuff then the person repenting from the sin has to really repent, if you are confessioning your sins to a Priest and dont really mean it yeah you might 'fool' the Priest but you wont fool God. So God isnt going to forgive someone's sins who actually arent asking for forgiveness of that sin. As far as religions go Christianity has alot more going for it then alot of others