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  1. #1

    Default Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...ompany-profits

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Feeling pain at the gas pump? Congressman Dennis Kucinich thinks he has a solution: Tax “unreasonable” oil company profits. The Ohio Democrat has introduced the Gas Price Spike Act, which he claims will “reduce the price of gasoline” by confiscating part or all of an oil company’s profits that exceed an amount deemed “reasonable” by a panel of unelected bureaucrats. Under Kucinich’s proposal — which currently has five cosponsors, all Democrats — a Reasonable Profits Board consisting of three presidential appointees would arbitrarily decide what constitutes a “reasonable profit” for “the sale in the United States of any crude oil, natural gas, or other taxable product.” Then, if a company’s profits exceed the board’s magic number, those “excess” profits will be taxed on a graduated scale ranging from 50 percent (for profits that exceed the “reasonable profit” by no more than two percent) to a full 100 percent (for profits that exceed the “reasonable profit” by five percent or more). The revenues raised would then be used to provide tax credits for the purchase of fuel-efficient vehicles and to subsidize mass-transit fares.

    The plan is, of course, hardly constitutional. The federal government is certainly not empowered to determine what a privately owned company’s profit level should be — nor to confiscate “excess” profits.

    The proposal is also based on faulty premises. The idea that oil companies can simply jack up prices to generate profits is absurd. If it were true, why would prices ever decline? Why, instead, would gas not cost $10 or even $100 a gallon? Gas prices, like all other prices, are driven by the market. An oil company that happens to invest in production when prices are low will naturally reap a larger profit when prices are high. By the same token, if that company forecasts badly and produces at a time of high prices but is forced to sell at lower prices, it will generate a smaller profit or even suffer a loss. Critics have noted that Kucinich’s bill cannot change these immutable laws of economics; it can only distort the market and harm both oil companies and consumers.

    In addition, there are many industries with significantly higher profit margins than the oil industry, as Hot Air’s Ed Morrissey explains:
    While politicians like to hyperventilate over the gross dollar amounts of profit from oil companies, profit is most accurately measured as a percentage — the ratio of profits to the cost of producing those profits. Does the oil industry have a record of exploitive profit margins? Hardly. For 2009, the oil and gas industry ranked 9th on Fortune’s list with a margin of 10.2%, exactly half of that of the network/communications industry, which finished first in 2008 as well. In fact, the margin for oil/gas decreased by three and a half points between 2008 and 2009.
    It is, therefore, hardly fair for Kucinich to single out the oil-and-gas industry for its allegedly obscene profits. Why not pick on the telecoms instead?

    Critics have also pointed out that is patently unfair to exclude the individuals most knowledgeable about the industry from the Reasonable Profits Board, as Kucinich’s bill does in declaring that “members shall have no financial interests in any of the businesses for which reasonable profits are determined by the Board.” True, it could create a conflict of interest to have industry members deciding what their own “reasonable profit” may be, but that just goes to show how nonsensical the whole concept is. Only people who have no connection to — and, as a result, very little knowledge of — the industry they are supposed to be regulating are permitted to serve on the board. Anyone who might have some idea what constitutes a “reasonable profit” for the industry is automatically excluded.

    In practical terms, the bill is guaranteed to fail in its stated objective of reducing gas prices. Christopher Helman of Forbes writes:
    A tax on a commodity supplier’s profits only disincentives the capital investment required to find and produce more of the commodity. Tax oil unfairly and you’ll end up with less oil, which would only push prices up higher. Furthermore, a tax on U.S. oil producers would only incentivize foreign producers like the OPEC nations to collude to raise the price of oil to “unreasonable” levels, knowing that their U.S. competitors would be taxed out of the marketplace, thus strengthening the position of their cartel-opoly.
    This is, in large measure, what happened the last time Congress tried to punish oil companies for achieving the objective of every business (i.e., profits). “Back in 1980,” recalled Josh Barro of the Tax Foundation, “then-President Carter signed into law the Crude Oil Windfall Profits Tax Act, which imposed a 70% excise tax on the amount of an oil sale price exceeding $12.81 per barrel.” The results, according to the Congressional Research Service: Domestic oil production dropped by three to six percent, and oil importation increased by eight to 16 percent. Because of other factors, oil prices actually fell, which caused the tax to raise very little revenue; but there is no guarantee that other factors would negate the price hikes that Kucinich’s bill is certain to bring about.

    Furthermore, the bill would harm investors, many of whom are just average Americans hoping to better their financial situations. As Steven Yates wrote in The New American in 2008, when politicians, including then-Sen. Barack Obama, were last making noises about a windfall profits tax:
    By and large, America’s oil companies aren’t owned by the small groups of insiders that control political parties. The percentage of industry shares owned by oil executives is only around 1.5. The rest is owned, indirectly, by tens of millions of American shareholders, often through their mutual funds, IRAs, or other personal retirement accounts, most of which invest in oil and natural gas stocks. If politicians were to institute a “windfall profits” tax or — worse yet — attempt to nationalize the oil and natural gas industries under the belief that this would get prices under control, who would really be hurt? The answer: these millions of ordinary investors with mutual funds, IRAs, or other personal retirement accounts.
    In no way, then, will Kucinich’s bill help ordinary Americans who are suffering sticker shock at the service station. It will not reduce the price of gas; in fact, it will probably increase the price. It will drive oil production to foreign countries. It will reduce investors’ returns, thereby shrinking their standard of living. And it will take another bite out of Americans’ fast-dwindling liberty.

    The good news is that a similar bill failed to pass the Senate in 2008 because Republicans filibustered it; and with even more members of the Grand Old Party in both houses of Congress today, Kucinich’s bill is unlikely to get very far. The bad news is that politicians determined to put private enterprise out of business will be burning the midnight oil to come up with new and more insidious ways to do so.


    In short, Kucinich wants a panel of unelected bureaucrats to be able to confiscate any profits from oil companies they deem "unreasonable". It's like something out of Atlas Shrugged. I actually liked Kucinich, he always appeared like the Ron Paul of the left to me, but this is insanity.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Enemy of the State View Post
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...ompany-profits

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Feeling pain at the gas pump? Congressman Dennis Kucinich thinks he has a solution: Tax “unreasonable” oil company profits. The Ohio Democrat has introduced the Gas Price Spike Act, which he claims will “reduce the price of gasoline” by confiscating part or all of an oil company’s profits that exceed an amount deemed “reasonable” by a panel of unelected bureaucrats. Under Kucinich’s proposal — which currently has five cosponsors, all Democrats — a Reasonable Profits Board consisting of three presidential appointees would arbitrarily decide what constitutes a “reasonable profit” for “the sale in the United States of any crude oil, natural gas, or other taxable product.” Then, if a company’s profits exceed the board’s magic number, those “excess” profits will be taxed on a graduated scale ranging from 50 percent (for profits that exceed the “reasonable profit” by no more than two percent) to a full 100 percent (for profits that exceed the “reasonable profit” by five percent or more). The revenues raised would then be used to provide tax credits for the purchase of fuel-efficient vehicles and to subsidize mass-transit fares.

    The plan is, of course, hardly constitutional. The federal government is certainly not empowered to determine what a privately owned company’s profit level should be — nor to confiscate “excess” profits.

    The proposal is also based on faulty premises. The idea that oil companies can simply jack up prices to generate profits is absurd. If it were true, why would prices ever decline? Why, instead, would gas not cost $10 or even $100 a gallon? Gas prices, like all other prices, are driven by the market. An oil company that happens to invest in production when prices are low will naturally reap a larger profit when prices are high. By the same token, if that company forecasts badly and produces at a time of high prices but is forced to sell at lower prices, it will generate a smaller profit or even suffer a loss. Critics have noted that Kucinich’s bill cannot change these immutable laws of economics; it can only distort the market and harm both oil companies and consumers.

    In addition, there are many industries with significantly higher profit margins than the oil industry, as Hot Air’s Ed Morrissey explains:
    While politicians like to hyperventilate over the gross dollar amounts of profit from oil companies, profit is most accurately measured as a percentage — the ratio of profits to the cost of producing those profits. Does the oil industry have a record of exploitive profit margins? Hardly. For 2009, the oil and gas industry ranked 9th on Fortune’s list with a margin of 10.2%, exactly half of that of the network/communications industry, which finished first in 2008 as well. In fact, the margin for oil/gas decreased by three and a half points between 2008 and 2009.
    It is, therefore, hardly fair for Kucinich to single out the oil-and-gas industry for its allegedly obscene profits. Why not pick on the telecoms instead?

    Critics have also pointed out that is patently unfair to exclude the individuals most knowledgeable about the industry from the Reasonable Profits Board, as Kucinich’s bill does in declaring that “members shall have no financial interests in any of the businesses for which reasonable profits are determined by the Board.” True, it could create a conflict of interest to have industry members deciding what their own “reasonable profit” may be, but that just goes to show how nonsensical the whole concept is. Only people who have no connection to — and, as a result, very little knowledge of — the industry they are supposed to be regulating are permitted to serve on the board. Anyone who might have some idea what constitutes a “reasonable profit” for the industry is automatically excluded.

    In practical terms, the bill is guaranteed to fail in its stated objective of reducing gas prices. Christopher Helman of Forbes writes:
    A tax on a commodity supplier’s profits only disincentives the capital investment required to find and produce more of the commodity. Tax oil unfairly and you’ll end up with less oil, which would only push prices up higher. Furthermore, a tax on U.S. oil producers would only incentivize foreign producers like the OPEC nations to collude to raise the price of oil to “unreasonable” levels, knowing that their U.S. competitors would be taxed out of the marketplace, thus strengthening the position of their cartel-opoly.
    This is, in large measure, what happened the last time Congress tried to punish oil companies for achieving the objective of every business (i.e., profits). “Back in 1980,” recalled Josh Barro of the Tax Foundation, “then-President Carter signed into law the Crude Oil Windfall Profits Tax Act, which imposed a 70% excise tax on the amount of an oil sale price exceeding $12.81 per barrel.” The results, according to the Congressional Research Service: Domestic oil production dropped by three to six percent, and oil importation increased by eight to 16 percent. Because of other factors, oil prices actually fell, which caused the tax to raise very little revenue; but there is no guarantee that other factors would negate the price hikes that Kucinich’s bill is certain to bring about.

    Furthermore, the bill would harm investors, many of whom are just average Americans hoping to better their financial situations. As Steven Yates wrote in The New American in 2008, when politicians, including then-Sen. Barack Obama, were last making noises about a windfall profits tax:
    By and large, America’s oil companies aren’t owned by the small groups of insiders that control political parties. The percentage of industry shares owned by oil executives is only around 1.5. The rest is owned, indirectly, by tens of millions of American shareholders, often through their mutual funds, IRAs, or other personal retirement accounts, most of which invest in oil and natural gas stocks. If politicians were to institute a “windfall profits” tax or — worse yet — attempt to nationalize the oil and natural gas industries under the belief that this would get prices under control, who would really be hurt? The answer: these millions of ordinary investors with mutual funds, IRAs, or other personal retirement accounts.
    In no way, then, will Kucinich’s bill help ordinary Americans who are suffering sticker shock at the service station. It will not reduce the price of gas; in fact, it will probably increase the price. It will drive oil production to foreign countries. It will reduce investors’ returns, thereby shrinking their standard of living. And it will take another bite out of Americans’ fast-dwindling liberty.

    The good news is that a similar bill failed to pass the Senate in 2008 because Republicans filibustered it; and with even more members of the Grand Old Party in both houses of Congress today, Kucinich’s bill is unlikely to get very far. The bad news is that politicians determined to put private enterprise out of business will be burning the midnight oil to come up with new and more insidious ways to do so.


    In short, Kucinich wants a panel of unelected bureaucrats to be able to confiscate any profits from oil companies they deem "unreasonable". It's like something out of Atlas Shrugged. I actually liked Kucinich, he always appeared like the Ron Paul of the left to me, but this is insanity.
    How will they determine what is reasonable and what isn't? Doesn't this go against everything that capitalism stands for?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Quote Originally Posted by karo View Post
    How will they determine what is reasonable and what isn't? Doesn't this go against everything that capitalism stands for?
    Totally up to them. It would result in oil companies lobbying the bureaucrats to punish their competition. I don't think it will pass, but that it is even considered is disturbing.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    I don't think it would be unconstitutional, a 90% income tax was assessed to actual individuals for a long time without any finding of unconstitutionality as raising revenues through taxation and managing commerce are both well within the established powers on the federal government. But it would be rather dumb.

    Oil companies rely market signals and on profits to further investment in exploration and extraction so that overtime you don't get into supply shortages. Take those funds out of the market system and you really would create an energy problem.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    I don't think it would be unconstitutional, a 90% income tax was assessed to actual individuals for a long time without any finding of unconstitutionality as raising revenues through taxation and managing commerce are both well within the established powers on the federal government. But it would be rather dumb.

    Oil companies rely market signals and on profits to further investment in exploration and extraction so that overtime you don't get into supply shortages. Take those funds out of the market system and you really would create an energy problem.
    If it was a 90% income tax and it would be "ok" but really stupid. To this seams that when the profits go above some random number they have the chance to confiscate the extra profit of any oil company they seem fit. So the problem is what is reasonable profit? Who will decide the random number? And last but not least why would any company eve try to make a profit above the random number when they know it is going to be confiscated?

  6. #6
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    I say stop trying to reduce the cost of gasoline with half measures and just raise the fuel tax.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    I say stop trying to reduce the cost of gasoline with half measures and just raise the fuel tax.
    Yes because that is so good for the economy isn't it

  8. #8
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Has to be sooner or later... perhaps raising it in certain areas will convince people to use mass transit.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Has to be sooner or later... perhaps raising it in certain areas will convince people to use mass transit.
    The question is why? Mass transport sucks especially outside big cities and add to that the effect it is going to have on the economy the question is why?

  10. #10
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Thats why you shape the city to fit the mass transit. The suburbs have been designed to be auto-dependent. Thats why mass transit doesnt fare so well. However, the effect car dependent suburbs have on the economy is worse than the cost to raise the gas tax to the level necessary to pay for the roads the tax was originally instituted to pay for. First Ring Suburbs are decaying, this is the urban sprawl that followed world war 2. Low density sprawl is not great for local economies either. The problem is the high cost to maintain roads and parking spaces which produce no income whatsoever but drain the local economy's revenue.

    Raising the fuel tax to pay for the roads we have to maintain would cause hardship to begin with but people are living in a bubble that will eventually burst. People have moved farther from work because they can afford to drive miles to work... however, they can only afford to because the fuel tax is kept low artificially... this has created a bubble because we all know we cant keep borrowing to pay for our roads.

    Fuel tax covers aprox 48% of the cost to maintain roads.
    Most mass transit systems are covered by as much as 70% by fares. But mass transit also creates higher density (not necessarily skyscrappers) which produces greater revenue for the city.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Enemy of the State View Post

    In short, Kucinich wants a panel of unelected bureaucrats to be able to confiscate any profits from oil companies they deem "unreasonable". It's like something out of Atlas Shrugged. I actually liked Kucinich, he always appeared like the Ron Paul of the left to me, but this is insanity.
    Rule of thumb if Kucinich proposes an idea its completely moronic.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Oil should be nationalised in the first place (as well as gold, steel etc), natural resources are the property of the nation.

  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    Oil should be nationalised in the first place (as well as gold, steel etc), natural resources are the property of the nation.
    So if someone owns land and there happens to be something useful there we should just take that land away from them?

    What about the native Americans in OK or 4 corners? Confiscate the reservations then?
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  14. #14
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    So if someone owns land and there happens to be something useful there we should just take that land away from them?

    What about the native Americans in OK or 4 corners? Confiscate the reservations then?
    He wasnt saying that.

    Remember the late 1870s after the civil war we moved into Indian lands and broke countless treaties because we found gold on land given to the Indians.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    1)So if someone owns land and there happens to be something useful there we should just take that land away from them?

    2)What about the native Americans in OK or 4 corners? Confiscate the reservations then?

    1) Compensate them for damage done to the land, a commission on the value of resources extracted and return the land when extraction is complete.

    2) The reservations belong to the Nations, it's for them to extract and sell.

  16. #16
    Hotspur's Avatar I've got reach.
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    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Why don't we start by ending subsidies for the major oil companies, then start pulling stuff out of the Hat of Crazy.

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotspur View Post
    Why don't we start by ending subsidies for the major oil companies, then start pulling stuff out of the Hat of Crazy.
    Yes I agree absolutely. The solution is LESS government money not a complete takeover.
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    He wasnt saying that.

    Remember the late 1870s after the civil war we moved into Indian lands and broke countless treaties because we found gold on land given to the Indians.
    He wasn't saying that but this is the direct implication.
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  19. #19

    Default

    Ridiculous.

    So of oil is found under my house my property goes to the government then? I remember when they tried to do eminent domain on my entire town over like this. We shot it down with threat of lawyers because people here don't think anyone has a right to MY land.

    Compensation is a BS cop out for enforced theft. I don't want to sell it. So im made to for likely less than market price.
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Dennis Kucinich introduces Gas Price Spike Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    Ridiculous.

    So of oil is found under my house my property goes to the government then? I remember when they tried to do eminent domain on my entire town over like this. We shot it down with threat of lawyers because people here don't think anyone has a right to MY land.

    Compensation is a BS cop out for enforced theft. I don't want to sell it. So im made to for likely less than market price.

    didn't say they had to accept, just what I envisioned the offer as. (Besides you don't need all the land over an oil or gas field)

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