Thirteen Virtues

[Farnan]

These are the thirteen virtues proposed by the American Politician, Scientists, Inventor, Philandropist, Author, Abolitionist, Diplomat, Government-buildier, Journalist, Editor, Librarian, Celebraty, Philosopher, Philanderer, and Militia founder Benjamin Franklin.

"TEMPERANCE. Eat not to dullness; drink not to elevation."
"SILENCE. Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation."
"ORDER. Let all your things have their places; let each part of your business have its time."
"RESOLUTION. Resolve to perform what you ought; perform without fail what you resolve."
"FRUGALITY. Make no expense but to do good to others or yourself; i.e., waste nothing."
"INDUSTRY. Lose no time; be always employ'd in something useful; cut off all unnecessary actions."
"SINCERITY. Use no hurtful deceit; think innocently and justly, and, if you speak, speak accordingly."
"JUSTICE. Wrong none by doing injuries, or omitting the benefits that are your duty."
"MODERATION. Avoid extreams; forbear resenting injuries so much as you think they deserve."
"CLEANLINESS. Tolerate no uncleanliness in body, cloaths, or habitation."
"TRANQUILLITY. Be not disturbed at trifles, or at accidents common or unavoidable."
"CHASTITY. Rarely use venery but for health or offspring, never to dulness, weakness, or the injury of your own or another's peace or reputation."
"HUMILITY. Imitate Jesus and Socrates."

What do you think of them?

[Garbarsardar]

I think that some of those values should be judged in their historical context:

For example today in the Western Societies the role of free time has become paramount, which renders the virtue of "Industry" somewhat redundant.

At the same time, many human endeavours have come to fruition mainly for lack of "moderation" ecpecially in modern scientific practice and artistic exploration.

That said this is a good set of honest humanitarian values with emphasis on the communal structures.

Nice post Farnan.

[Legio XX Valeria Victrix]

HA! Chastity from Ben Franklin! That's a good one!

No offence to the guy, he was brilliant, but let's be realistic here.

[Farnan]

Well, I never said he exactly followed them...

Part of his description was philanderer.

[MoROmeTe]

Looking over the list I find that one which values all such values at all given times would not ahve any fun in life. Or all of his fun would be the "serious" kind...

TEMPERANCE: I trully belive that over drinking is, seldom, a great think. It purges the mind of balast and let's one get on with business...
SILENCE: I find a good conversation bordering on dissorder and full of retorts and twist of tongue to be quite refreshing...
ORDER: This I especially dislike. Order leads to lack of imagination, in my opinion...
RESOLUTION: A bit kantian, no?
FRUGALITY: Quite interesting as long as it is not pushed to the point of being a hermit...
INDUSTRY: Again a bit on the bad side for most modern men...\
SINCERITY: Our whole world at this moment is created around the existence of deceit an lies...
JUSTICE: Could only agree...
MODERATION: Simply put I do not believe in the whole "Aurea mediocritas" discourse...
CLEANLINESS: No problem here!
TRANQUILLITY: To Zen for me; I like my fights now and then...
CHASTITY: To strict for the modern world...
HUMILITY: Socrates I do imitate by way of dialogue... Jesus I don't plan on imitating...

Nice as guiding principles... Way off as factual realities...

[Tostig]

I started out listing them one by one, but found I was repeating myself, so to sum it up:
What a load of pish for the most part. It's nothing more imaginative than the Greek virtues and golden means (which were of course borrowed by Christianity), with a splattering of Kantian duty and Protestant work ethic. What about pragmatism, honour or courage? Someone lend him a copy of Also sprach Zarathustra for crying out loud.

Edit Mk. I:
If we're to play the virtue ethics game I will come right out and say that I am a non-cognitivism, moral irrealist etc. Morals are subjective and thus virtues are too, being based on the society in which you live. I also detest Virtue Theory with a burning passion, since it tells you nothing at all:
"Which virtues should I try and obtain?"
"Those held by people you see as flourishing."
"Which people are flourishing?"
"Those people with virtues you should try and obtain."

I admit that my understanding of the concept of eudemonia is a tad shaky, but in my opinion that is only because the concept itself is a tad shaky.

Further more virtue ethics tells you nothing about what you should do in a given situation:
"Should I abort my unborn child?"
"If it will make you a more flourishing person."
"How do I know which will make me a more flourishing person, do I look to the consequences or do I do what I perceive as my moral duty?"
"Err, this theory was re-hashed to try and solve the conflict between Deontology and Utilitarianism. Please come again."

[Farnan]

Umm... Ben Franklin died one hundred years before that book was published, and came up with these virtues when Kant was two years old.

I didn't say I neccessarily agreed with all of them, but brought them up so they can be debated.

[Tostig]

I wasn't speaking literally, but rather saying that what little material there was which deserved to be payed attention to has been said in more depth and in many ways more conviction by others, and that there is nothing unique. Further more his entire set of values, in my opinion, have been undermined by both the fact-value disctinction and the lessening role of God in society.

Gott ist tot! Gott bleibt tot! Und wir haben ihn getötet

[Farnan]

The role of God in society is irrevelant to these values as they were created by a Deist...

[Tostig]

No, they are simply a continuation of the values of his predecessors, which for some origionated in ancient Greece and subsequently adopted by the church and others with the Protestant Reformation - both of which tie directly with God. It could be said that it would have been better for him to forge his own values based on both his society, the type of person he wanted to be and how he wished to sculpt society rather than unthinkingly continue on what he has already been told are virtues.

Kant was in many ways a Deist, but it didn't stop him rambling on about Radical Evil and the need for a saviour to redeem peoples morals.

[Jesus The Inane]

"TEMPERANCE. Eat not to dullness; drink not to elevation."

If there is enough food to go around for everyone, then I don't think glutonny is bad... but then one must also exercise for lazyness is a bad thing.

"SILENCE. Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation."

This I don't agree with. Conversation is a great art, and I believe one must be able to converse about any subject at hand, even if it is a personal subject. Its part of being a rational human being. Silence is boring and depressing. It reminds me of the saying; "If a fool keeps silence he might be taught of as a sage."

"ORDER. Let all your things have their places; let each part of your business have its time."

I wouldn't consider this a "virtue" since it isn't necessary for being a good human being.

"RESOLUTION. Resolve to perform what you ought; perform without fail what you resolve."

what?

"FRUGALITY. Make no expense but to do good to others or yourself; i.e., waste nothing."

Sometimes one must hurt people in order to help a greater amount of people.

"INDUSTRY. Lose no time; be always employ'd in something useful; cut off all unnecessary actions."

I think it common sense that even the wisest people need rest in inane activities.

"SINCERITY. Use no hurtful deceit; think innocently and justly, and, if you speak, speak accordingly."

This I agree with.

"JUSTICE. Wrong none by doing injuries, or omitting the benefits that are your duty."

Sometimes one must do injustices in order to have justice... kind of like moral terror...

"MODERATION. Avoid extreams; forbear resenting injuries so much as you think they deserve."

Fair. But even extremes can be taken in moderation. Like having sex for an entire day can be quite enjoyable, but if you do it every day it won't.

"CLEANLINESS. Tolerate no uncleanliness in body, cloaths, or habitation."

Clean but not vain.

"TRANQUILLITY. Be not disturbed at trifles, or at accidents common or unavoidable."

That is wise. When one makes a stupid mistake one shouldn't be to disturbed by it.

"CHASTITY. Rarely use venery but for health or offspring, never to dulness, weakness, or the injury of your own or another's peace or reputation."

Have sex asmuch as possible. Also, try new things, and make sure you use your imagination to its fullest. Role playing is good at this.

"HUMILITY. Imitate Jesus and Socrates."

Socrates wasn't that humble really. In some dialogues he made witty remarks against his opponents in order to make fun of them. In his trial he clearly didn't show much humility to the judges, and he kind of showed arrogance by choosing death, in a way. In a way he was saying; "I'm right and you can't prove me wrong so kill me if you want, I don't care. Everybody should think like me."

As for Jesus... claiming oneself to be God is very humble indeed...

[Marcus Scaurus]

Socrates wasn't that humble really. In some dialogues he made witty remarks against his opponents in order to make fun of them. In his trial he clearly didn't show much humility to the judges, and he kind of showed arrogance by choosing death, in a way. In a way he was saying; "I'm right and you can't prove me wrong so kill me if you want, I don't care. Everybody should think like me."

Socrates was humble. When it was clear that he was condemned to death by the Athenian court, he didn't escape to another city (an easy thing to do). He lived and agreed with the laws of the State and subjected himself to the possibility of being accused by the citizens for spoiling the youth.

[Garbarsardar]

Socrates was humble. When it was clear that he was condemned to death by the Athenian court, he didn't escape to another city (an easy thing to do). He lived and agreed with the laws of the State and subjected himself to the possibility of being accused by the citizens for spoiling the youth.

This is just one way to put it. Another would be that Socrates challenged the Athenian State and the laws, exactly to demonstrate the ridiculous extent they had, thinking that in the end he should be exempted from punishment, not by escaping as any normal citizen would do if he had the chance, but by aquittal, which would force the state to accept the impracticality and inapplicability of the law. Not that humble in my book...

[Sidus Preclarum]

What do you think of them?

that it looks like a Pendragon Character sheet...

[MoROmeTe]

My take is that Socrates was so much devouted to the way he saw the world and so determined to change the things he was seeing to an alternate more like his Utopia that he knew that only personal example pushed to the extreme aka death was the means to move people...

[apostate]

"HUMILITY. Imitate Jesus and Socrates."

...unmatched!

btw i always wished that jeshua would be that unlucky to have met socrates...he would really have such a dificult time with him that he would suicide in his cross much earlier than he did!