If a policy discriminates against race, can it ever be moral?

[ErikinWest]

My long title can be summarized in two words: Affirmative Action.

I nearly exploded in rage today when people were discussing the benefits given to aboriginals of Canada (they have certain education benefits).

Now to give a bit of a better picture: Aboriginals of Canada, who can prove their race, have certain rights. The bulk of the rights and benefits exist if you live a reserve (historically: an area of land that the government put for aboriginals who had been displaced of the land due to a land treaty). The benefits I'm concerned with are the ones given to aboriginals off a reserve. (For more information you can see all of them at: http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ps/edu/ense_e.html)

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom (http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html) guarantees equality based on race in the clause 1), but quickly adds in clause 2) that 1) if not applicable for affirmative actions. So the programs are not unconstitutional.

For me, any discrimination based on race in unacceptable. All people of all races are equal. The minute you change that, you start going down a slope, that I'm afraid will only increase in incline.

I’d like to hear your opinions,
Erik

[Atheist Peace]

Well... what's the standard for whether something's moral, or not?

[Last Roman]

Well... what's the standard for whether something's moral, or not?

In this case, whether or not you think it's right or wrong.

anyhoo, Affirmitive Action is somewhat of a quandry for me. On one hand, it seems apparent that sometimes to make things equal in the longrun, we might have to make them unequal in the present. On the other, AA basically looks like a handout. So I'm kinda in a bind when it comes to AA.

[ErikinWest]

On one hand, it seems apparent that sometimes to make things equal in the longrun, we might have to make them unequal in the present. On the other, AA basically looks like a handout. So I'm kinda in a bind when it comes to AA.

But things are already equal. Everyone has equal access to health care, with equal access to education, and equal laws protecting all races from discrimination.

Erik

[Last Roman]

But things are already equal. Everyone has equal access to health care, with equal access to education, and equal laws protecting all races from discrimination.

Erik

in theory yes, not in practice

[ErikinWest]

in theory yes, not in practice

Huh? Prove to me that not everyone gets equal education. Assuming you are right (for arguments sake), who gets to decide what is unfair? Once they initiate affirmative action, when do they stop?

Erik

[Atheist Peace]

In this case, whether or not you think it's right or wrong.

What does it matter what a few people "think" about it?

[Fenris]

What natives claim:

That we came and destroyed their culture, they want to be able to live like their ancestors. Fine.

But without us: no guns, no chainsaw, no free healthcare, no ski-doo, etc.

So you don't want to have to respect forests and faunic regulations? You don't want to pay taxes? Well hunt as much as you want with your bows, cut as much wood as you want with your stone axes, no free healthcare, no free education system, etc.

Seriously I'm all for preserving amerindian culture, but they are destroying it themselves, the traffic (mainly cigarettes) is incredibly high in the reserves, yet the police cannot interfere because the native mafia will interfere (of course, this is not in every reserve, but in some of them).

Violent manifestation are their mean to protest, and when anyone interferes or some are accused for serious crimes, they call it racism. Yet (I think this is just in Quebec, might have to check if it's in all Canada) but the natives here are the ONLY ones with an international lobby representing them.

So what suggest is: give them some lands where they can all live as they want, a country for them, where they can do whatever they want (but control the frontiers heavily to prevent traffic), and allow any of them to live on our territory, but as a citizen with the same rights as any other citizen.

[Kino]

Deleted by user.

[Lee1026]

Still, they do have the rights to leave, so I fail to see the point.

[Kino]

Deleted by user.

[Lee1026]

And sending them to college (away from the reservation, I may add) is different from having them leave, I presume?

Any way, they already do have an advantage in that they can go anywhere that we can, and we can't go anywhere that they can. If they want to have honor, then let them pay for it.

[Carsomyr]

And sending them to college (away from the reservation, I may add) is different from having them leave, I presume?

Any way, they already do have an advantage in that they can go anywhere that we can, and we can't go anywhere that they can. If they want to have honor, then let them pay for it.

I agree. They also get massive benefits for college.

What they really need to do is stop fighting and resisting the rest of the world and start working with it.

[Turbo]

I reject all affirmative action particularly for wrongs committed generations ago. These affirmative actions never seem to go away and don't have an expiration date.

[Richard the Lionheart]

Affirmative action is a liberal solution to a problem they label as "discrimination". Liberals believe that discriminiation is so deep rooted and institutionalized within our socities, that it has to be forcebly fought against. Thus the solution known as "affirmative action."

The problem is that affirmative action doesn't solve the main problems of our society. Affirmative action doesn't reduce poverty levels, it doesn't reduce the exploitation of labor, and it doesn't solve the class based social inequality.

Affirmative action doesn't cause many problems, but it doesn't solve any problems either. It's pretty much useless.

[Last Roman]

Affirmative action is a liberal solution to a problem they label as "discrimination". Liberals believe that discriminiation is so deep rooted and institutionalized within our socities, that it has to be forcebly fought against. Thus the solution known as "affirmative action."

are you denying that discrimination exists?

[Richard the Lionheart]

are you denying that discrimination exists in the modern world?

Not at all. Discrimination does exist, but that's not our main problem.

Our main and primary problem is the social class inequality which causes poverty and exploitation of labor.

[Fenris]

Not at all. Discrimination does exist, but that's not our main problem.

Our main and primary problem is the social class inequality which causes poverty and exploitation of labor.

Does that means that we don't have to care about discrimination

[Richard the Lionheart]

Does that means that we don't have to care about discrimination

Not at all. Of course we should care about discrimination. But discrimination is not the main source of our society's problems.

[Carsomyr]

Does that means that we don't have to care about discrimination

I think the point is, work on fixing the dilemmas of social classes and you'll help fight discrimination as well. Lower classes are where a lot of discrimination is bred and harboured. Discrimination is still merely one facet of the social class situation, though. Poverty is something that affects everyone of every color and more than just skin color. The gap between the rich and poor is ever increasing and AA isn't going to fill that gap.

Frankly, I agree that AA is useless as well. It just goes against the ideologies of a meritocratic society and, honestly, why should someone be put at a disadvantage for something they bear no individual responsibility for and vice versa for those at an advantage?