Real Combat/Real Recruitment 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED to 3.2 Vanilla-version 1.5 RELEASED

[Chivalry]

How can i counter Lôke-Flag Rim? is the only solution outnumbering them ?

[MooMoo2]

the problem is, that the AI balrog is stupid as hell : the AI will just let him stand still , without attacking.
I was able to kill the balrog (in custom battle) with just one unit of dwarven miners. Same thing for Sauron.
Elves are strong, yes, but sauron should be able to kill 5 unit of high elves swordsmen.

If you want a more accurate Sauron and balrog, You can increase the number of unit they send flying (kill) to make it look like in the movies. To do this you have to increase the tusk radius.

Remember : Tusk Radius : it determines the radius of their attack, so they send more unit flying and really look like maiar, not just a troll unit.

You should also give more hp to nasguls : I would recommend 10 hp at least. They were Sauron's lieutenant, so they should be the mightiest force in middle earth, and not loose against one single unit of high elves swordsmen. Especially the witch king.
To kill them you would have to use at least 2-3 unit of high elve spearman

[Kolaris8472]

No matter how many hitpoints you give dismounted Nazgul they'll still lose to a lot of units, simply because they're endlessly stunlocked.

[Nemesis_GR]

@Chivalry they are one of the best heavy infantry.They are elite,heavy armored and have ap maces.
So weaken them with missiles,engage them with your heavy infantry and change their flanks/backs with cavalry or shock infantry.

Btw I have removed the lock_morale that all loke regiments had since it seemed too much,but i gave lok flag rim more armor(they look really heavy armored so advanced lammelar 11 +plates 2=13 which is the equilavent of full plate armor seemed more appropriate).
Furthermore they require the barracks event and lvl4 barracks which can only be constructed at a large city/fortress that rhun wont have until very very late.(around 80 turns maybe more).

@Kolaris what do you mean with stunlocked?

@MooMoo how does the "tusk" radius get increased?Btw stop getting banned every day

[i.am.not.MooMoo]

GO into descr_mount : go see sauron and balrog elephant : their tusk radius is 1 and 1.1. Increase those to 3 : they should send more unit flying in the air.
I tested it : 3 is the idea number : sauron's has the same power than in the movies.
For the balrog increase it to 3 too : it's logic that he too sends lots of unit in the air : he was a maiar like sauron, and he was specially designed for battle. Plus, it compensate his lack of whip in the game, because with his whip he could kill many unit at the same time.

[i.am.not.MooMoo]

type sauron
class elephant
model mount_sauron
radius 1
x_radius 0.1
;x_radius 0.5
y_offset 0
height 2
mass 120
banner_height 1
bouyancy_offset 3
water_trail_effect elephant_water_trail
root_node_height 2.84
attack_delay 0
dead_radius 1.5
tusk_z 1.5
tusk_radius 3 ;1
riders 3
rider_offset 0.05, -1.52, 1.37
rider_offset -0.3, -1.52, 0.4 ;y was 1.54
rider_offset 0.3, -1.52, -.35 ;y was 1.54

type balrog
class elephant
model balrog
radius 1 ;3
x_radius 0.5 ;1.3
y_offset 0
height 2 ;3
mass 80 ;40
banner_height 1
bouyancy_offset 3
water_trail_effect elephant_water_trail
root_node_height 2.84 ;was 2.52
attack_delay 0
dead_radius 1.5
tusk_z 1.6 ;3
tusk_radius 3 ;1.1
riders 2
rider_offset 0.05, -1.52, 1.37
rider_offset -0.3, -1.52, 0.4 ;y was 1.54
;rider_offset 0.3, -1.52, -.35 ;y was 1.54

[Nemesis_GR]

Ok i ll check it.Btw one-man sauron/balrog are only available in custom battles not campaign.There is a different unit for campaign.Anyway i ll check all creature units for next version.Tnx for feedback.

[i.am.not.MooMoo]

I know for the two different sauron.
the mount is the same for the campaign sauron and the custom sauron. There is only one sauron mount.

[Nemesis_GR]

Yeah i know.What i meant is that maybe the tusk radius 3 is ok for the one-man Sauror/Balrog that is only on custom battles but on campaing there are like 4 of them so maybe they get too powerfull?I ll do some testing when i get the time.hf

[Sinister9]

I think you are right. I saw only such "lower class" units with this problem as I wrotte (uruk raiders, goblin infantry, rohan militia, orc looters - when my Mordor army was on invasion I got the option to recruit them). Unfortunately I don't know about others yet and yesturday I started to think, those are spawned troops, not recruited by normal process as you say

Another funny thing was, when I sent my rhunic bodyguards with general to help pikemen in battle, they were comming to them from behind and started to charge, but 1/3 of them died, it looked like they run into their pikes...but from behind

[i.am.not.MooMoo]

Also for the nasguls, right now, they are weak, very weak. they can be easely killed by one unit of good infantery, because they never have the chance to strike. Their attack is too slow and they get hit before they can finish their move. So they almost never hit somebody.
In RC they are even weaker than in vanilla.
-you should find a way to make their attack animation faster (change it or something) IF YOU CAN
OR
-you should give them more hit point, increase their defense and their charge.



About sauron-balrog and the tusk radius : you might find the campaign sauron\balrog overpowered in a way, because there a 6 of them but think one second :

- It's good for the AI : If the AI mordor has the one ring, he will get accuratly strong. Indeed, right now, the AI can't use sauron properly. The AI don't make sauron run everywhere like the player would do. The AI sauron tend to stay in the same place for a very long time, and since it'S static attack is not very strong, he will only kill a limited number of soldier. You can even manage to kill him with 3 unit of gondorian infantry. That's completely inacurrate : Sauron is far less dangerous than he should be, and when the AI mordor get him, it's not as impressive as it should be.
With the increased tusk radius sauron, AI Sauron gets actually more dangerous, because it's static attack is more lethal and you won't be able to swarm him with infantry. He will get as strong as he should be (lore wise) and you will feel fear when the AI mordor will gets the ring.
Same thing for the balrog, he becomes mightier as he should be.

[Lurker from Beyond]

Nemesis_GR

Thank you for all your work and effort to bring RC to TATW. Having played many mods with various implementations of PB's work I must say it's one of the best (at least in my opinion). Units stats seem to correspond rather well with their looks (equipment) and "common sense".

There are some things about Arnor/Eriador that make me wonder while looking through the edu/playing the game.

1. Aragorn's bodyguard - Grey Company on foot. Imho not that great choice for such important character. Due lack of armor they die quite easily, and they are infantry to boot (running away is not so easy)... Simply they are not good at bodyguarding, additionally they seem to slow Aragorn on a campaign map.
Possible solutions:
Mounted Grey Company - horsearchers would be great, poor armor but great speed and usability.
Standard Dunedain Bodyguard - boring but ok.

2. Arnor units (based on edu, no actual gameplay experience)
Judging by description each of them consists of Dunedain. How comes?
Imho lorewise there are simply not enough Dunedain to fill up all those units - for example in Eriador's roster only select few units are Dunedain. Reformed Arnor is probably much larger then core lands of Eriador faction, therefore I guess percentage of Dunedain in population is even smaller.
Units like Arnor Militia, Arnorian Archers, Dismounted Arnor MAA might use (Arnorian/Numenorian) equipment, perhaps even benefit from some additional training but that doesn't make them Numenorian. I think they should be composed of normal northerners ex.Breelanders.
I ask you to consider limiting Dunedain in Arnor roster to few elite units.

Keep up the great work.

[jakethesnake]

Would still like to strike a blow for the ridiculous cavalry in the game. 3 generals vs half a stack of orc spearmen today. 5 casualties vs 500. I never pulled back and recharged, just fought in melee. It's not realism, please! Warhorses are useless when standing still... Shove a wooden spear into a horse and see what happens for yourselves if you don't believe me... Militia cavalry sucks, heavy cavalry is unbeatable in melee + they have the speed and charge.

Cavalry should be used to chock and break the enemy, then mow them down as they escape. But if the enemy keep their ground, cavalry shouldn't be able to defeat them in melee. Just look at the LOTR movies - Rohan wins because the orcs piss their pants and run. It is fear mixed with charge. Would they have been braver and stood their ground, Rohan would be history - at Helms deep as well as Minas Tirith.

Nemesis: I bet pikemen rapes cavalry. But what do you effectively use in the prior 200 turns?

I don't mean to be rude, just want you to think about it.

Also, have you looked at the speed of infantry vs cavalry? I don't know, but I feel infantry is a bit too fast to be realistic?

And, also, since when do you use axes to counter cavalry, what's the story?

Great mod except for this.

[Malanthor]

Jake i dont understand your example. what you claim is not representative for my games. I just did two custum battles rhun against gondor, 3 rhun heavy cavalry vs 5 gondor spearmen, both units only had 1 bronze chevron no other uppgrades. I initially charged the spearmen and took down a bunch and then i just let the units duke it out in melee combat til one side won. The cavalry won both times but had 79 and 76% losses. ANd it is worth to notice that the spearmen uppgraded would have been better off than the cavalry, with two armor uppgrades among other things. The cost of 3 such cavalry units in game would be 1700x3 and 640x3 in upkeep while the spearmen would cost 800x5 and 300x5 in upkeep. The cavalry costs more. Now bear in mind that if i play gondor and use the spearmen i am going to win because the AI is a moron and hes weakness can be exploited by maneuvering your units around. So i really dont see your beef against cavalry.

And axes are good agaisnt cavalry because they are two handed weapons that do massive damage. Meaning they have AP and do good damage. You have to stop them from charging first offcource then rush your axemen in to clobber those heavily armored mofos.
In reality its quite viable, once cavalry gets bogged down you will want to use some hard hitting weapons to deal with em, axes are not foremost on my list of such weapons but they should do the trick just fine.

[jakethesnake]

Malanthor:

Regarding your example... I think that 3 cavalry should be able to beat 5 spearmen easy piecy, but OLNY if you use them they way you are supposed to use them and the way cavalry was used, by charging, outmaneuvering, scaring the enemy and eventually breaking them. Like I said, horses aren't any good standing still. It is not fair they have both strong defense AND the charge and speed.

And shouldn't axemen be effective against armor, only? Or maybe their long axes reach up to the rider, I don't know...

[Malanthor]

Well you have to consider the fact that what happens on your screen is only an indicator of what really goes on down there. When my horsemen are meleeing an infantry unit they pretty much just stand still -acting just like if they were infantry themselves, occationally pushing forward and hitting someone next to their horse. its a totally retarded way of showing cavalry in action. And if we are to pretend that the animations we see acting out before us are just what is happening then you are right -the cavalry would be toast. If things were perfect you would see the cavalry never become bogged down but using their speed and momentum to maneuver from place to place, i am not talking of charging with lances over and over -which is totally unrealistic but simply using the horse itself as a weapon and a tool of fear aswell as meleeing when feasible. So for me, when cavalry are standing still it just represents them fighting -but not charging with lances -not the bogged down humping animations we see play out before us. What im trying to get at is this: the game engine dont allow us to portray cavalry the way they realistically fought, so we need to make a few compromises -its also the matter of the AI using them to effect which limits our options.

Yeah, axes are effective vs armor, and heavy cavalry and its rider have just that -armor. Axes dont have that much reach so they wouldent be my weapon of choice for dealing with bogged down cavalry but they have hitting power and could go through either the horses armor or its riders armor, cut the legs out from under the horse, knock the rider from hes horse etc.

[Nemesis_GR]

@lurker
1.Aragons bodyguard should be the grey company.And lore-wise they were dunedain rangers of the north NOT horsearchers.
2.I was thinking of making some changes regarding who gets the dunedain race bonus.
Changes that i will make for next version:
a.Remove the dunedain bonus from arnor militia and standard troops.
b.Add dunedain bonus to swan knights mounted/dismounted and fountain guard.
c.Add armor bonus(through special material +1) to annuminas knights mounted/dismounted.
Of course units numbers and cost will be adjusted also.

@Jakethesnake
1.Read again my previous post regarding cavalry.
2.Test cavalry against infantry of same quality.Exceptional cavalry is and should own militia inf.
3.The best tactic against heavy cavalry prior to access to pikemen:
a.You have to avoid their charge.This can be done by either absorbing their charge with your own cavalry or a cheap spear milita unit preferably in sciltrom formation.
b.After the charge ended withdraw immediatly your cavalry/militia spearmen and charge in shock infantry preferably with AP weapons.(axes,halberds etc).
c.Also use stakes to protect your units.

[jakethesnake]

Ok Malanthor, fare enough what you say. But, If the cavalry is surrounded by compact formations, either by sword or spear, which they will become if not withdrawn in time, they will not be able to move like you say and would be overwhelmed, either the infantry tear them down from the saddle, or the horse panics and throws the rider off. In "open" formations, like the ones archers had they would be able to do what you said and that is why they were very effective against them. But infantry had "closed formations" And no matter how big your hose is, you can't just ride in there and ride around like elephants.

Charge, break and give chase - that's cavalry, not "hold the line" for twenty minutes.

Nemesis: I bet you can counter cavalry in the game. That's not the question. the question is, is it realism the way it is now? Maybe I've missed something... you might just adapt an already completed mod into Third age. In that case my beef is with the original creators.

[Malanthor]

Jake: trained warhorses dont panick when surrounded. Also its really hard for a horse to throw off a trained rider. Having ridden when i was younger i know that, all too often a mouse or something would scare a skittish horse i was riding and even though it bucks and tries to throw you off its fully possibly to clamp your legs together and stay on. And i wasnt even a very skilled rider.

Also i didnt mean them beeing totally surrounded when i spoke of them beeing bogged down, more like at a turning stage or involved in a lesser melee etc.

No they cant hold the line with a static defence, but this game dont adequatly represent what they can do and should be dooing. And thus i think the current system we have is okay.
Remember that lances usually breaks, get stuck or is lost after first impact so that aspect is only viable at the opening off the battle realistically speaking. The most realistic way of portraying cavalry in game with the current engine would prob be to give them a limited elefant bull rush meaning those they run over take damage, then you would have to keep em moving to cause real damage, if you got bogged down and surrounded you would die. However that is prob not possibly/would be a to balance/do.
In reality you can charge the horse at someone from 10 foot away, knock them down and stomp them under the horses hooves. In game you cant hit anything infront of you and have no way of dooing damage in that direction, you have to ride up besides them and whack them with your sword. That is an example of a game limit that goes against cavalry. If you look at the strength of real life cavalry you should find that the cavalry in medieval aint that badly portrayed. Sure its not realistic in every aspect but the overall feel is pretty good.

[Nemesis_GR]

Jake for the last time:Test heavy cavalry against heavy infantry,not against orc rabble...
Btw have you ever played SS?Thats were heavy cavalry is OP.Because it is set in medieval times where knights were the superweapon of that era...For example there heavy cavalry charges heavy infantry frontally and kills 90% of the unit.In tatw it is around 30% at best...

EDIT:I ll release version 1.4 later today which will be final.(but ofcourse i ll release bugfixes-for example some spawned units missing cards/textures).I wont include the changes i made to creatures/special units since i am waiting PB to finish RC2.0 and the units animations.hf all