Real Combat/Real Recruitment 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED to 3.2 Vanilla-version 1.5 RELEASED

[jakethesnake]

I have now enjoyed a campaign as Gondor and really liked it. I have some feedback. I think, when adding 2.5 to each armor upgrade that Gondor inf/spears are actually better than Swan/Citadel when fully upgraded. Maybe the higher tier units could have an upgrade as well?

Also the cavalry is a bit unrealistic (according to me...) I know LOREWISE they should have a powerful charge, which I can live with, but they are too good in melee. In other words, they won't die. Countering them with spearmen doesn't seem to change anything. They should be good at flanking, or when armoured, able to charge right into the lines, but in my campaign I used them defensively. I could also take a full stack army with about 100 bodyguards. Visa vi, when I had inf. army I could kiss my ass goodbye when Harad had cavalery in theirs. They just can't be stopped... Not even going to talk about the black numeriarns (nazgul general).

I would like to argue further about trolls. Sure, they are hardy, but I can live with that (even though mordor has Uruk Hai when I am twenty turns from having my axemen) But it's also their way of attacking. They plow through every army, no matter how deep they are. No spearwall or phalanx can stop them, they'll just run right through my elite spear troops. Ents should be able to do that, or Elephants, but In my opinion trolls are just too small and don't have the mass for it. It looks silly. Sure, they should plow through 1,2,3,4, maybe 5 inf. but then they should get stuck. It would make it a bit more fun countering them, not having to think "oh no, trolls! Which units do I sacrifice this time?"

Also the god damn troll catapult! Has longer range than anything else both elve's and gondors couterparts. It's really annoying. I think they should have less range (Made in Mordor quality), but maybe faster reload (being strong trolls and all).

[Malanthor]

I dont understand this, i have an easy time with cavalry when using pikes and halberds.
I agree with the trolls to some extent i think theyre mass should be lowered a bit or whatever change is needed to stop theyr initial charge attack.
I assume the troll catapulty has longer range because its a huge machine with a troll to load it or something. In theory atleast, i dont remember how the model looks. But who knows maybe it needs a range nerf as you say.

I wonder abouth what PB defines as a partial plate. Is a metal breastplate enough or do it need to have a hauberk or something underneeth? when trying to class unit armor i find that alot of units have a single breastplate and maybe some shoulder pads which is obviously plate armor so do that warrant the full +11 armor bonus when a knight in full armor over hes entire body only get +13?
Just trying to understand the system better here.

[Nemesis_GR]

I am playing a gondor campaign also so here is my opinion:

1.Cavalry seems OP to you because u use a lot of bodyguards which are an exceptional unit with strong charge so they own low-tier units.I edited desc_strat and started only with the family members(Denethor,Boromir,Faramir,Imrahil) and 3 more(Forlong,Arveldir and Dunhir-who has blackroot vale archers),did almost no adoptions and used only one general per army-Denethor to the mordor front/Imrahil to the harad front the rest governors.(re-enabled some squalor ancillaries btw).
So i was forced to use gondor militia cavalry and trust me it is weak...
But when u get gondor heavy cavalry the ai has higher quality armies.Do some testing in custom battles and u ll see that good heavy infantry performs really well against cavalry.(i even upgraded gondor heavy cavalry from average to superior---since they get lower numbers and we get them after barracks even it seems right-not included in the released version).

2.Trolls,didnt fought many of them since i deleted the last stand/help weakened faction script(i want to conquer the whole and i am tired of stack spam i own them anyway )but some volleys from ithilien rangers+lossarnach axemen did the trick.Also artillery is effective against them.

3.Armor First of all it is not 100% sure that each armor upgrade gives exactly 2.5 instead of 1.It is around 2...
Actually in my armor version citadel guard/fountain guard get an upgrade.Only swan knights dont since the get advanced plate(15).I think it is ok.

4.Troll Catapults are fine.They are better than standard catapults as they should be.Trebuchet has more range(320 compared to troll catapults 300).Go change them with heavy cavalry.

But i am thinking of reducing the number of artillery in each unit.(vanilla has 2,rc1.4.1 had 4 per unit--maybe 2 is better since artillery seems to have good accuracy).

[jakethesnake]

Look at what happens when horses run into sharpened stakes (archer thingy) - that's realism. If you run your horses into pikemen or spears you should have a similar effect - it should be a disaster (at least pikemen). Now you can just pull them back and have a few casualties.

Same goes for sword and shield infantry. They should not be able to cut their way through them like butter. Maybe that's just because I'm used to Rome total realism where cavalry was primely used for flanking and even sword units could keep a stand against horses, using their shields and tight formations. Same should go for trolls if you ask me. If you run into a bunch of spears you die, instantly.

And trolls... At the river-crossing at cair andros. I have five balistas and ten rangers. They just barely manage to kill the trolls at they try to cross. I think that's too much.

And another thing, which might not be related to this mod, but ballistas aim for dead trolls... In a company with lets say three trolls left, the ballistas seem to aim at the same dead troll next to them. Also, many projectiles seam to pass right through their sprite, which I think explains the above. It should be quite easy to hit a troll, right?

[Malanthor]

Look at what happens when horses run into sharpened stakes (archer thingy) - that's realism. If you run your horses into pikemen or spears you should have a similar effect - it should be a disaster (at least pikemen). Now you can just pull them back and have a few casualties.

Same goes for sword and shield infantry. They should not be able to cut their way through them like butter. Maybe that's just because I'm used to Rome total realism where cavalry was primely used for flanking and even sword units could keep a stand against horses, using their shields and tight formations. Same should go for trolls if you ask me. If you run into a bunch of spears you die, instantly.

And trolls... At the river-crossing at cair andros. I have five balistas and ten rangers. They just barely manage to kill the trolls at they try to cross. I think that's too much.

And another thing, which might not be related to this mod, but ballistas aim for dead trolls... In a company with lets say three trolls left, the ballistas seem to aim at the same dead troll next to them. Also, many projectiles seam to pass right through their sprite, which I think explains the above. It should be quite easy to hit a troll, right?

Yeah but you have to take into consideration the laws of physics. You have a object moving at 30+ mph that weighs half a ton, its not suddenly just going to stop and fall over dead when it hits a few sticks. Also armored horses meant for charging can have some pretty heavy armor protecting their front, which is where those pointy ends are going to hit, and its not like they are anchored to a wall, they are beeing held by people which obviously will be moved when they absorb the impact that is coming their way. On the other hand i dont advocate formations just disintegrating when hit by a cavalry charge (like it is with trolls currently) either! I think its fairly fine as it stands, right now you can wipe out cavalry pretty easy if you field heavy pikemen against them.
Rome total war uses light cavalry mostly, lighter faster horses, no saddle/stirrups, no couched lance, no horse armor etc. Thats an entirely different ballpark. One of the problems with cavalry in-game is that its way to easy to just pull them back from a fight and re-charge rinse and repeat. In reality you cant just enter combat and get bogged then pull out and do it over and over again. It simply dont work like that.

As for the trolls we are in agreement, they need a slight nerf.

[jakethesnake]

Generally, I think horses have too much defense. They are solitary offensive units and should be made to break enemy forces. And if they don't break, you're in a lot of trouble. When fighting defensibly, or manly in melee, many nights dismounted.

option 1. In a phalanx formation when facing spears overlapping each other and like you say, so you are faced with several heavy spears, each with a weight of say 100-120kg with armour, have an object weighing half a ton, thrusting itself right onto the spears at 30 mph I bet whatever amour the horse is wearing would be pierced. It wouldn't drop dead straight away, it would crash right into there, breaking spears and formation along the way, but it would it would be able to do melee afterwards. I don't know, but my logic says so.

Option 2. Pikemen used to use the blunt end of the spear fastened in the ground (correct me if I'm wrong), putting their foot on it, thus making it solid. (same as sharpened stakes). 30mph, half a ton on a solid spear...

Yes, heavy armored war horse can be a lethal weapon, but as history shows it has weaknesses. Right now there is no stopping it effectively and dramatically, which I miss.

There was mostly light horse in Rome, but there is light horse in TATW as well and it doesn't act the same, especially not against light infantry. Untrained, unarmored horses would have difficulty running right into a wall of shields.

Also, I think they are too cheep, both upkeep and recruitment. There is nothing stopping you from building an unstoppable army of horses, which wouldn't work in real life, except for Djingis Khan. There is not only a nobleman on top, but the horse also needs tons of provisions and armour of its own. If they remain the same stats, I think you should at least consider to raise the cost?

So I think we shall have to agree to disagree on the horses. Maybe it's images of braveheart that got me all caught up. It's more fun to play when a battle can take dramatic changes now and then...

[jakethesnake]

And regarding the general unit... wouldn't it be possible to have an upgrade system for them as well, which disables the possibility of using them as a stack army and beat everything. Maybe they should be little better than militia in early game and little better than gondor cav. when fully upgraded?

[Chivalry]

I think Rhun Generals Bodyguard units are too powerful. They ruins early game for dale. And i know it's not your fault but their general, just general, killing 100 man himself. 2 cavalry charging and 10 man dying etc. i'm not the worst player on earth but having problem with killing their 1 unit body guard with my 500 dale swordsman. some people will say then get some spear unit (heart watchmen, baddest unit in game i guess), but it's not fair 30 horseman killing 500 swordsman like ants it's realy annoying.

Sorry for bad English, i hope you understand.

[Kolaris8472]

I just managed to beat Rhun using the mod (as Dale), the Loke-Rim bodyguards are definitely something to be feared.

I don't have a problem with how effective they are in melee, actually. Well, the General himself is ridiculous. I had one siege where the General himself managed to kill/route the rest of my army single handedly, killing 100+ and routing the rest. But usually they go down to Rohvanion Gaudrahts/Dalesmen at around 2.5 ratio, which I can afford. And you have tons of stake-laying units to use to your advantage.

The problem I have with Loke-Rim (and Trolls to some extent) is that I can have them surrounded by 500 men, and the AI decides it wants to charge some of my archers way across the map. They can, from a complete standstill, push their way through a solid mass of hundreds of armoured spearmen and make it out of the enclosure unscathed. And then proceed to pull off a charge on my archers. A few expletives get hurled at the computer at that point

So I would agree, I think they have too much mass if they're able to trot their way out of a full enclosure like that. I can see that being realistic if the horses were already at a gallop, but from a standstill there's simply no way for them to build momentum.

[Chivalry]

Rhovanion Gaurahts are routing at first charge of loke-innas rim's. I'm totally desperate against their heavy cav.

My favourite unit is rivermen now. They are the only cure i have. i dont care even if i lose them due to their low cost.

And another question is, why Athala Rangers are 1000 gold? Are they worth it? While Rhuns golden archers 7 missile attack and 17 defence, they are just 6 missile attack and 12 defence, useless i guess.

Anyway, thanks for your good work

[Nemesis_GR]

@Jakethesnake Pikemen rape cavalry.What are u talking about?If pikemen stand still with spearwall+defence mode on and a cavalry unit charges at them they get massacred.BUT with G5s battle AI that doesnt happen.AI cavalry avoids stakes and pikemen as it should.Btw spearmen in schiltrom work very well also.
Generally the best way to kill heavy cavalry is to absorb their charge with your cavalry or a cheap spear unit and then asap send in some 2h axes or halberds with AP to kill them and withdraw the first unit.

@Chivalry i know what you mean,i played a dale campaign myshelf and those bodyguards just wouldnt die...But they are elite uber-armored cataphacts so i guess it is ok...The problem imo is that every general gets them.The standard Rhun bodyguard could be a lighter cavalry and only faction leader/heir should get the loke innas rim.

Athala rangers are classed elite and skirmish archers.That means they get shorter range but are VERY accurate.And they have decent armor.And on top of that they get normal numbers(60-150 in huge) since i classed dale as an archers faction.So they are absolutely worth the 1k.Imo athala rangers should be available before the barracks event like the ithilien rangers.

Rhun heavy archers are classed elite and missile archers.So they get more range,less accuracy and cannot_skirmish.(example of other missile classed archers is bardian archers,gondor-arnor heavy archers etc).Also they get +1 damage for rhunnic composite bow.

@Kolaris I agree that when withdrawing and moving around surrounded by troops any unit should get massive casualties.This is active to an extent but i also think that it should be more.Sadly this is a known issue in vannila and all mods since afaik it is hardcoded and cant be changed.This problem applies mostly to really heavy cavalry and special units.
They thing that they try to attack your archers is g5s fault.The AI is a bit smarter!

[Chivalry]

You're right i have made some tests and results was athala rangers raping rhun archers

could you make the standard Rhun bodyguard lighter cavalry, or can i ? i think bodyguards shouldnt have a massive role in army cuz they are free, but these guys realy hurts me

[MooMoo]

The nasgul have become a little bit underpowered : it's supposed to be a fearsome force when they are all assembled but they were humiliated against unit of high elves swordsmen : you should boost their stats a bit more to at least make them as strong as a high elve swordsmen unit, otherwise they are really useless, considering that they are only 11 on huge.

What do you think of making sauron and the balrog a little bit more accurate too : they should (especially sauron) throw more unit in the air and be more lethal. Right now they ask constant micromanaging and don't do that much damage : roughly the same as a troll unit. But those two maiar should be more efficiant then just an olog hai troll unit, or I don't see why Sauron was seeking the ring instead of breeding one more unit of troll.
Plus it would be fun to see sauron sending tons of unit in the air like in the movies.
Right now he is sending some, but not enough for him to become really epic.


SO my suggestion :
So Sauron and Balrog : Send more unit in the air. Also, not sure if it's possible, but can you make Sauron attack more often or is there some kind of game limitation? Because he tend to stay in the same place without doing something, even if attacked.

[Nemesis_GR]

@Chivalry maybe rhun bodyguards could get the lighter cataphact version thats in AUM.(i dont use AUM but i ll check that unit).And i should make a new unit of lok innas rim bodyguards just for faction leader/heir.Hmm i look into it.

@MooMoo Dismounted Nazguls stats are fine the problem is that they are so few.So they get easily surrounded.You should use them as shock infantry for flanking etc.(does mordor actually get them in the campaign?)
Right now they have 5hp maybe something around 8 would be better.

I dont think somethink can be done about balrog/saurons attack...I ll ask PB about their animation when he finishes RC2.Btw they have 0 attack delay.
Generally always keep in mind that there are game engine limitation.This is a mod for MEDIEVAL 2 total war so there werent exactly trolls,spiders,mumakills,balrogs etc there.In tatw these creatures are all based to elephants.

[Malanthor]

Lets keep in mind that other races also get heavy cavalry. Which are not that far off from the cataphracts.
I think the nazguls should get 8 hp as you suggested nemesis. Would help them live a bit longer.
And sauron and the balrog def need a boost, right now you can kill them with 1 unit of elves or dwarves. And that is a little weak imo, they are supposed to be really powerfull. (maia=some sort of demigod) Yeah i know that some elves have slain em, but thats super elves and not the gimps currently inhabiting middle earth (except glorfindel i reckon)

[Aper]

The nasgul have become a little bit underpowered : it's supposed to be a fearsome force when they are all assembled but they were humiliated against unit of high elves swordsmen : you should boost their stats a bit more to at least make them as strong as a high elve swordsmen unit, otherwise they are really useless, considering that they are only 11 on huge.

What do you think of making sauron and the balrog a little bit more accurate too : they should (especially sauron) throw more unit in the air and be more lethal. Right now they ask constant micromanaging and don't do that much damage : roughly the same as a troll unit. But those two maiar should be more efficiant then just an olog hai troll unit, or I don't see why Sauron was seeking the ring instead of breeding one more unit of troll.
Plus it would be fun to see sauron sending tons of unit in the air like in the movies.
Right now he is sending some, but not enough for him to become really epic.

Well, nazgul are really just ghosts of men, their power lies in fear and in that kind of subtle sorcery we all love Tolkien for: they are just not suited for epic field battles in my opinion, they should be generals or assassins. OTOH, eldar swordsmen are the super-badass, evil butt's kicking unit, so I'm fine they thrash few ghosts semi-incarnate.

About maiar and trolls, it's perfectly clear where the problem is, the trolls are insanely overpowered, I know it's a dead horse but it's just a fact, in books they are really just big strong guys, not mini-elephants: face it modders, for god's sake! Sorry but I had to say that
In my game I lowered their HPs to 3, their mass to a max of 20 or so, and left the "lock_morale" attribute only to Olog-hai: they feel much better now, I'm considering also to raise a bit their numbers to compensate.

[Lord Plankton]

About Sauron and the Balrog: imo their def is high enough (i only tested it with sauron but the balrog isnt that much different) i tried a full stack of heavy elven archers against sauron after several volleys, which due to the archers accuracy only spread about a radius of a few meters around him, he reached the archers and killed hundreds of them, and finally after a meele of about 20 minutes he died. And his attacks are actually quite alright. If you just let him stand around we wont do anything you need to let him run through the enemies ranks to be effective. His attacks are the "special attacks" of an elephant just with a normal one handed attack animation. If elephants encounter enemies while walking those attacks are triggered and its the same for sauron. He does have an attack while standing too if, i'm not mistaken, and it basically has the same effect he just doesnt attack that often, just like elephants.

[Aper]

Just checked, the Olog-hai have a mass of 100! and other trolls just a little less! This is madness! :sparta:
No wonder they are unstoppable and that they annhilate every other special unit like Mumakil and Ents or maiar, I just can't understand the rationale behind that... oh yeah, that silly cinematographic effect: I think a mod like RC should definitely fix this issue.

EDIT:

And his attacks are actually quite alright. If you just let him stand around we wont do anything you need to let him run through the enemies ranks to be effective.

Correct. "Elephant units" have to keep moving to be effective. People thinking they are underpowered should try a custom battle using the balrog vs. a full stack, keep him charging through enemy lines, and tell us the results...

[Nemesis_GR]

Guys "creatures" are not exactly using the RC categories,weapons,armor etc and as i already said this game was never meant to have trolls,ents,sauron etc so they cant be exactly accurate...

Btw sauron/balrog get owned by javelins since they are "elephants".One volley and they dead...
And for trolls u just need 2h AP inf.Pin them with a cheap unit then charge in the shock infantry.Archers/artillery are effective also.

Stop complaining about these units.They are not OP by any stretched imagination...You just have to face them with the appropriate strategy...

Anyway i will take a look at all of them for next version which probably will be final.

[Lord Plankton]

Just checked, the Olog-hai have a mass of 100! and other trolls just a little less! This is madness! :sparta:
No wonder they are unstoppable and that they annhilate every other special unit like Mumakil and Ents or maiar, I just can't understand the rationale behind that... oh yeah, that silly cinematographic effect: I think a mod like RC should definitely fix this issue.

EDIT:
Correct. "Elephant units" have to keep moving to be effective. People thinking they are underpowered should try a custom battle using the balrog vs. a full stack, keep him charging through enemy lines, and tell us the results...

I did exactly that. Someone said that a unit of elven swordsman kills him so i thought he shouldn't stand a chance against spearmen then as he counts as heavy cavalry so they should deal mor damage to him than the swordsmen and they have a higher def. As expected he won so there is no non-elephant unit that can possibly kill him 1v1.
Another example of such units are the ents: In my isengard campaign i took fangorn and the scripted ent rebel army appeared two rounds later. I decided to attack them with about 7 units of uruk raiders a general and one units of snaga skirmishers (it was more for testing purposes as i knew that wasn't a good decision so i saved before the battle) the battle chances said 9:1 for me or something like that but the ents killed nearly the whole army of 1333 men (uruks and goblins ) exactly 100 of them survived and the ents didnt lose a single man (ent/elephant you know what i mean) So i guess their defense deserves a nerf (rather the armor than the hitpoints) same for trolls and their mass propably too. The Balrog and Sauron are ok i guess they are just as uber as they should be lore-wise.