Real Combat/Real Recruitment 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED to 3.2 Vanilla-version 1.5 RELEASED

[Aper]

Just checked, the Olog-hai have a mass of 100! and other trolls just a little less! This is madness! :sparta:
No wonder they are unstoppable and that they annhilate every other special unit like Mumakil and Ents or maiar, I just can't understand the rationale behind that... oh yeah, that silly cinematographic effect: I think a mod like RC should definitely fix this issue.

EDIT:

And his attacks are actually quite alright. If you just let him stand around we wont do anything you need to let him run through the enemies ranks to be effective.

Correct. "Elephant units" have to keep moving to be effective. People thinking they are underpowered should try a custom battle using the balrog vs. a full stack, keep him charging through enemy lines, and tell us the results...

[Nemesis_GR]

Guys "creatures" are not exactly using the RC categories,weapons,armor etc and as i already said this game was never meant to have trolls,ents,sauron etc so they cant be exactly accurate...

Btw sauron/balrog get owned by javelins since they are "elephants".One volley and they dead...
And for trolls u just need 2h AP inf.Pin them with a cheap unit then charge in the shock infantry.Archers/artillery are effective also.

Stop complaining about these units.They are not OP by any stretched imagination...You just have to face them with the appropriate strategy...

Anyway i will take a look at all of them for next version which probably will be final.

[Aper]

Guys "creatures" are not exactly using the RC categories,weapons,armor etc and as i already said this game was never meant to have trolls,ents,sauron etc so they cant be exactly accurate...

Btw sauron/balrog get owned by javelins since they are "elephants".One volley and they dead...
And for trolls u just need 2h AP inf.Pin them with a cheap unit then charge in the shock infantry.Archers/artillery are effective also.

Stop complaining about these units.They are not OP by any stretched imagination...You just have to face them with the appropriate strategy...

Anyway i will take a look at all of them for next version which probably will be final.

Let me be clear, Nemesis: I'm not complaining about your work, I'm really grateful for that, and if I don't like something I can change that, like I did.
It's not about gameplay, me and others can kill the beasts, simply we can't understand the rationale behind trolls being on par or better than any other creature in the game, while in lore they should be just big brutish guys.
The only reason, I suppose, is to have them to perform like in some (bad, I think) action scenes in the movies, and it's a very poor reason IMHO.
Anyway, I'm fine with whatever you do, I'm just reasoning and suggesting here, not bashing.

[Lord Plankton]

Just checked, the Olog-hai have a mass of 100! and other trolls just a little less! This is madness! :sparta:
No wonder they are unstoppable and that they annhilate every other special unit like Mumakil and Ents or maiar, I just can't understand the rationale behind that... oh yeah, that silly cinematographic effect: I think a mod like RC should definitely fix this issue.

EDIT:
Correct. "Elephant units" have to keep moving to be effective. People thinking they are underpowered should try a custom battle using the balrog vs. a full stack, keep him charging through enemy lines, and tell us the results...

I did exactly that. Someone said that a unit of elven swordsman kills him so i thought he shouldn't stand a chance against spearmen then as he counts as heavy cavalry so they should deal mor damage to him than the swordsmen and they have a higher def. As expected he won so there is no non-elephant unit that can possibly kill him 1v1.
Another example of such units are the ents: In my isengard campaign i took fangorn and the scripted ent rebel army appeared two rounds later. I decided to attack them with about 7 units of uruk raiders a general and one units of snaga skirmishers (it was more for testing purposes as i knew that wasn't a good decision so i saved before the battle) the battle chances said 9:1 for me or something like that but the ents killed nearly the whole army of 1333 men (uruks and goblins ) exactly 100 of them survived and the ents didnt lose a single man (ent/elephant you know what i mean) So i guess their defense deserves a nerf (rather the armor than the hitpoints) same for trolls and their mass propably too. The Balrog and Sauron are ok i guess they are just as uber as they should be lore-wise.

[Chivalry]

How can i counter Lôke-Flag Rim? is the only solution outnumbering them ?

[jakethesnake]

Would still like to strike a blow for the ridiculous cavalry in the game. 3 generals vs half a stack of orc spearmen today. 5 casualties vs 500. I never pulled back and recharged, just fought in melee. It's not realism, please! Warhorses are useless when standing still... Shove a wooden spear into a horse and see what happens for yourselves if you don't believe me... Militia cavalry sucks, heavy cavalry is unbeatable in melee + they have the speed and charge.

Cavalry should be used to chock and break the enemy, then mow them down as they escape. But if the enemy keep their ground, cavalry shouldn't be able to defeat them in melee. Just look at the LOTR movies - Rohan wins because the orcs piss their pants and run. It is fear mixed with charge. Would they have been braver and stood their ground, Rohan would be history - at Helms deep as well as Minas Tirith.

Nemesis: I bet pikemen rapes cavalry. But what do you effectively use in the prior 200 turns?

I don't mean to be rude, just want you to think about it.

Also, have you looked at the speed of infantry vs cavalry? I don't know, but I feel infantry is a bit too fast to be realistic?

And, also, since when do you use axes to counter cavalry, what's the story?

Great mod except for this.

[Malanthor]

Jake i dont understand your example. what you claim is not representative for my games. I just did two custum battles rhun against gondor, 3 rhun heavy cavalry vs 5 gondor spearmen, both units only had 1 bronze chevron no other uppgrades. I initially charged the spearmen and took down a bunch and then i just let the units duke it out in melee combat til one side won. The cavalry won both times but had 79 and 76% losses. ANd it is worth to notice that the spearmen uppgraded would have been better off than the cavalry, with two armor uppgrades among other things. The cost of 3 such cavalry units in game would be 1700x3 and 640x3 in upkeep while the spearmen would cost 800x5 and 300x5 in upkeep. The cavalry costs more. Now bear in mind that if i play gondor and use the spearmen i am going to win because the AI is a moron and hes weakness can be exploited by maneuvering your units around. So i really dont see your beef against cavalry.

And axes are good agaisnt cavalry because they are two handed weapons that do massive damage. Meaning they have AP and do good damage. You have to stop them from charging first offcource then rush your axemen in to clobber those heavily armored mofos.
In reality its quite viable, once cavalry gets bogged down you will want to use some hard hitting weapons to deal with em, axes are not foremost on my list of such weapons but they should do the trick just fine.

[jakethesnake]

Malanthor:

Regarding your example... I think that 3 cavalry should be able to beat 5 spearmen easy piecy, but OLNY if you use them they way you are supposed to use them and the way cavalry was used, by charging, outmaneuvering, scaring the enemy and eventually breaking them. Like I said, horses aren't any good standing still. It is not fair they have both strong defense AND the charge and speed.

And shouldn't axemen be effective against armor, only? Or maybe their long axes reach up to the rider, I don't know...

[Nemesis_GR]

@lurker
1.Aragons bodyguard should be the grey company.And lore-wise they were dunedain rangers of the north NOT horsearchers.
2.I was thinking of making some changes regarding who gets the dunedain race bonus.
Changes that i will make for next version:
a.Remove the dunedain bonus from arnor militia and standard troops.
b.Add dunedain bonus to swan knights mounted/dismounted and fountain guard.
c.Add armor bonus(through special material +1) to annuminas knights mounted/dismounted.
Of course units numbers and cost will be adjusted also.

@Jakethesnake
1.Read again my previous post regarding cavalry.
2.Test cavalry against infantry of same quality.Exceptional cavalry is and should own militia inf.
3.The best tactic against heavy cavalry prior to access to pikemen:
a.You have to avoid their charge.This can be done by either absorbing their charge with your own cavalry or a cheap spear milita unit preferably in sciltrom formation.
b.After the charge ended withdraw immediatly your cavalry/militia spearmen and charge in shock infantry preferably with AP weapons.(axes,halberds etc).
c.Also use stakes to protect your units.

[Malanthor]

Well you have to consider the fact that what happens on your screen is only an indicator of what really goes on down there. When my horsemen are meleeing an infantry unit they pretty much just stand still -acting just like if they were infantry themselves, occationally pushing forward and hitting someone next to their horse. its a totally retarded way of showing cavalry in action. And if we are to pretend that the animations we see acting out before us are just what is happening then you are right -the cavalry would be toast. If things were perfect you would see the cavalry never become bogged down but using their speed and momentum to maneuver from place to place, i am not talking of charging with lances over and over -which is totally unrealistic but simply using the horse itself as a weapon and a tool of fear aswell as meleeing when feasible. So for me, when cavalry are standing still it just represents them fighting -but not charging with lances -not the bogged down humping animations we see play out before us. What im trying to get at is this: the game engine dont allow us to portray cavalry the way they realistically fought, so we need to make a few compromises -its also the matter of the AI using them to effect which limits our options.

Yeah, axes are effective vs armor, and heavy cavalry and its rider have just that -armor. Axes dont have that much reach so they wouldent be my weapon of choice for dealing with bogged down cavalry but they have hitting power and could go through either the horses armor or its riders armor, cut the legs out from under the horse, knock the rider from hes horse etc.

[jakethesnake]

Ok Malanthor, fare enough what you say. But, If the cavalry is surrounded by compact formations, either by sword or spear, which they will become if not withdrawn in time, they will not be able to move like you say and would be overwhelmed, either the infantry tear them down from the saddle, or the horse panics and throws the rider off. In "open" formations, like the ones archers had they would be able to do what you said and that is why they were very effective against them. But infantry had "closed formations" And no matter how big your hose is, you can't just ride in there and ride around like elephants.

Charge, break and give chase - that's cavalry, not "hold the line" for twenty minutes.

Nemesis: I bet you can counter cavalry in the game. That's not the question. the question is, is it realism the way it is now? Maybe I've missed something... you might just adapt an already completed mod into Third age. In that case my beef is with the original creators.

[Malanthor]

Jake: trained warhorses dont panick when surrounded. Also its really hard for a horse to throw off a trained rider. Having ridden when i was younger i know that, all too often a mouse or something would scare a skittish horse i was riding and even though it bucks and tries to throw you off its fully possibly to clamp your legs together and stay on. And i wasnt even a very skilled rider.

Also i didnt mean them beeing totally surrounded when i spoke of them beeing bogged down, more like at a turning stage or involved in a lesser melee etc.

No they cant hold the line with a static defence, but this game dont adequatly represent what they can do and should be dooing. And thus i think the current system we have is okay.
Remember that lances usually breaks, get stuck or is lost after first impact so that aspect is only viable at the opening off the battle realistically speaking. The most realistic way of portraying cavalry in game with the current engine would prob be to give them a limited elefant bull rush meaning those they run over take damage, then you would have to keep em moving to cause real damage, if you got bogged down and surrounded you would die. However that is prob not possibly/would be a to balance/do.
In reality you can charge the horse at someone from 10 foot away, knock them down and stomp them under the horses hooves. In game you cant hit anything infront of you and have no way of dooing damage in that direction, you have to ride up besides them and whack them with your sword. That is an example of a game limit that goes against cavalry. If you look at the strength of real life cavalry you should find that the cavalry in medieval aint that badly portrayed. Sure its not realistic in every aspect but the overall feel is pretty good.

[Nemesis_GR]

Jake for the last time:Test heavy cavalry against heavy infantry,not against orc rabble...
Btw have you ever played SS?Thats were heavy cavalry is OP.Because it is set in medieval times where knights were the superweapon of that era...For example there heavy cavalry charges heavy infantry frontally and kills 90% of the unit.In tatw it is around 30% at best...

EDIT:I ll release version 1.4 later today which will be final.(but ofcourse i ll release bugfixes-for example some spawned units missing cards/textures).I wont include the changes i made to creatures/special units since i am waiting PB to finish RC2.0 and the units animations.hf all

[Malanthor]

Sounds good Nemesis. Ime having good fun with the work youve done here, so cheers.

[Atlanton]

I posted this question in the guides forums, but considering that I'm using the RC submod, it's probably more relevant here.

With 1.3, my Eriador campaign is slowing down, because I cannot beat Gundabad armies without wearing down my melee troops.

It seems that although Eriador's specialty is in ranged units, the armor of the OoG makes it so their troops reach my line of spearman with little/few casualties. Of course, since OoG troops are much better in melee than the Breeland Militia, it's important that I either cause a lot of casualties of archers or have cavalry for some hammer/anvil.

Any suggestions for making better use of the units? Should I be kiting more or using guard mode to preserve the Breeland Militia while archers do their work? With the casualties I'm taking, I'm going to need at least 2 full stacks + reinforcements to defeat the Orcs, which makes me feel like I'm doing it wrong.

[Nemesis_GR]

Eriador has the weakest roster as it should.You should play defencively at least until the barracks event so you can get some elite dunedain units.
Btw eriadors specialty is not archers.They have no specialty...

[Amonero]

I posted this question in the guides forums, but considering that I'm using the RC submod, it's probably more relevant here.

With 1.3, my Eriador campaign is slowing down, because I cannot beat Gundabad armies without wearing down my melee troops.

It seems that although Eriador's specialty is in ranged units, the armor of the OoG makes it so their troops reach my line of spearman with little/few casualties. Of course, since OoG troops are much better in melee than the Breeland Militia, it's important that I either cause a lot of casualties of archers or have cavalry for some hammer/anvil.

Any suggestions for making better use of the units? Should I be kiting more or using guard mode to preserve the Breeland Militia while archers do their work? With the casualties I'm taking, I'm going to need at least 2 full stacks + reinforcements to defeat the Orcs, which makes me feel like I'm doing it wrong.

If you need that many troops, you're doing it wrong.
As Eriador you need a combined arms approach to contend with the numbers of the orcs - you can't trust the superiority of your troops or your heavy armour, since you have neither.

Thick blocks of militia to hold the line, bandits as speed-bumps, and cavalry only for rear or flank charges. Your weak archers are best used to flank or run behind already engaged units and pepper them in the rear with flaming arrows.

Use terrain to your advantage, move to favourable terrain with your troops on the campaign map rather than attacking.

Eriador IS weak, but it can be fun to play with as you really need to maximize your regiments strengths. When Arnor emerges things will get alot easier, as your then have both armour, offensive capabilities, good ranged capabilities and heavy cavalry.

[Atlanton]

If you need that many troops, you're doing it wrong.
As Eriador you need a combined arms approach to contend with the numbers of the orcs - you can't trust the superiority of your troops or your heavy armour, since you have neither.

Thick blocks of militia to hold the line, bandits as speed-bumps, and cavalry only for rear or flank charges. Your weak archers are best used to flank or run behind already engaged units and pepper them in the rear with flaming arrows.

Use terrain to your advantage, move to favourable terrain with your troops on the campaign map rather than attacking.

Eriador IS weak, but it can be fun to play with as you really need to maximize your regiments strengths. When Arnor emerges things will get alot easier, as your then have both armour, offensive capabilities, good ranged capabilities and heavy cavalry.

Well I was doing pretty well using the tactics that you mentioned with spear militia, a few archers, and flanking merchants/generals. However, I've been finding most of my success is due to Gundabad sending out generaless stacks with low morale. When facing stacks with generals, I have to rely on sniping their general (and hoping there aren't trolls) in order to make the enemy route quickly enough. Otherwise, my units get swamped by the orcs.

And what I thought was difficult with Gundabad has become even worse with Isengard... Their armor, high stats and troop numbers absolutely decimate my units, and even with general sniping, their high morale keeps them from routing. The crossbow units in particular are really nasty because they have much better melee stats than militia, while having more men and an armor piercing/super effective crossbow.

This past game has really been frustrating as I'm at turn 154 with everything needed for Arnor emergence except Hoarwell (owned by OoMM) and Thorbad (just stolen from me by Isengard). With the high army upkeep from all of my generals/governors, I cannot afford more than 2-3 10 unit defense armies. At this point, I'm unsure if I'll be able to survive, let alone successfully transition to Arnor if OoTMM, OoGM, or Isengard sends a stack of Uruks or Trolls.

[Nemesis_GR]

1.Crossbows dont have AP in RC.But they have higher attack than bows.
2.Dont adopt generals except if someone is really good because they are expensive(250g upkeep).Keeping a governor in every settlement is not worth it.One governor in bree and one in annuminas is enough.(gandalf-aragorn are the best for this task).
3.Killing the enemy general can also be done with a well-aimed charge at the left side of the bodyguard unit.
4.You should play a little more agressive at the start and secure your arnor regions fast and then hold them until you are ready to reform arnor.
5.You should have two armies one full stack attacking oog and a half one defending your south-east border from isengard/ootm if they feel like attacking you.Keep only free-upkeep garrisons everywhere else.
6.Btw at turn 154 you should have an elite army (with dunedain rangers/battle ready dunedain inf/mounted dunedain which are very powerful...) and use it to attack oog.
7.Maybe you should improve your combat skills.

[Malanthor]

Yeah, i suggest you play intelligent and beat on the AIs less-than-man intelligence for all its worth. Lot of fun stuff you can do to keep him off you. Among other, may i suggest sallying forth when you are besieged to whittle down their numberd and using your generals cavalry extensivly to spare your other units since they replicate. Ofc exploiting the stupid ai gets booring after a while, but you should manage til the barrack event, also what abouth making temporary peace with em? I know it sucks having to bring a bunch of gobbos your treasure chests, but if its that or extinction...
By the way nemesis, how did you remove the spawn-lot-of units script-when-faction-is-weak? Did you erase all the lines or just the one at the top.