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Thread: Real Combat/Real Recruitment 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED to 3.2 Vanilla-version 1.5 RELEASED

  1. #81

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    What he means (i think) is that weapon upgrades aren't necessarily bound to the guilds. In call of warhammer for example there are differen't non-guild buildings for each weapon type (ranged, meele and firearm). I don't think that more than one upgrade level is possible in the med II engine though. I guess his point is, that you could make similar buildings for tatw as well (except for the firearm thing of course) in CoW they are called fletcher's workshop and weaponsmith or something like that. As i am a big fan of upgrades, i would apreciate that too and am looking forward to a baron's version of your armor upgrade system.


    Great submod btw.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis_GR View Post
    As i said i know that there is only weapon upgrade and only for melee weapons.What exactly are you talking about?Am i missing something?:S
    All the bonuses in a custom battle can be assigned to a building, so +1 to +3 blade, +1 to +3 next weapon type is allowed to be incorported, this adds the other side of the matrix of armour upgrades, weapon upgrades to increase attack levels. Some Blacksmiths could be a universal steel improved, while some specific buildings provide a bonus, lots of ways to do it.

    Prob a tutorial on a full list of what you can include in the tutorial section.

    weapon_melee_blade – weapon_melee_blade 1
    Upgrades the weapons of all melee troops by 1.

    Visually, this mod gives you a different look for each upgrade http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=513030
    Last edited by Hanny; January 26, 2012 at 08:15 PM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  3. #83

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    I uploaded this and added the Rhudaur units to Gundabad, adjusted the elite human units of Isengard as they did not seem to have superior or elite bonuses. Though the Orcs usually have subtraction unit stats for most units versus humans. Human units in orc factions, and especially elite ones, I imagine should not, even more so when they are also body guard units of two of the faction commanders. The attack of the Guards of the Orthanc, for example is no better than generic spearmen or even militia men, and yet they are supposed to be a fairly elite, rare, expensive unit, that is also a bodyguard troop of Saruman. The Veterans of Dunlending are not much better, with the attack of basic axemen, yet they too are supposed to be experienced warriors and also bodyguards of Yagthuk. I added an elite bonus to Orthanc Guards, and a superior bonus to the Veterans.

    I have added actual Raiders. Infantry in smaller squads that carry bows and swords. I used the uruk hai archers but shortened the range, raised the defense, and I lowered the melee of the uruk hai archers and kept the range and defense. This makes a nice new unit and adds to the immersion and realism of the mod, since you now have smaller units of uruks who have some cross infantry and missile unit use. Their cost is higher than swordsmen but the upkeep is much lower given their smaller unit size. This makes sense in accord with both the movie and the books so that Saruman could have small raider squads of Uruk-Hai and not have to wait 10 turns or more.

    I have also changed the Rohan scouts to be Rohan Horsemen Militia with a larger unit number and a slightly less melee and charge. I found it odd their charge was higher than more elite horsemen units. It makes more sense that militia for Rohan would in fact be horsemen anyway and not infantry. The Militia I changed to, light spearmen. I made the dismounted royal guard with a higher attack and the dismounted lancer with a higher attack but the Eorling swordsmen with a lower attack.

    This adds a unit to Isengard, Uruk Hai Raiders, and changes the former Raider unit to Uruk-Hai Swordsmen. These changes are also in line with a older Lord of the Rings mod that had alot of units people frequently ask for and RC/RR type stats.

    Gundabad gets 3 new units, Rhudaur Axemen, Rhudaur Scouts, and Hillmen that they did not have before except as Invasion Call merc units. With the additional units mod, several evil factions have very comparatively small rosters anyway. The new raider unit alone adds a great deal to the immersion effect.

    It would be nice in the future to see other ideas from the old RTW LOTR mod updated and added to thi one. These ideas would most certainly help to balance the factions out more with better and larger rosters. Some might be used from the RTW Fourth Age mod as well. One thing I liked about that mod aside from some cross over unit recruitment was the elite unique buildings in the homelands where one of 3 buildings constructed allowed for one of 3 very unique units. The only drawback was this took until almost the end of the game when most lands are conquered.
    Last edited by Cincinatus; January 26, 2012 at 09:56 PM.
    "It is worth while for those who disdain all human things for money, and who suppose that there is no room either for great honor or virtue, except where wealth is found, to listen to his story."
    - Livy 3.26

  4. #84

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Using the melee weapon upgrade is a bad idea, because it doesn't add +1 to weapon attack, it adds about 6, which is massively unbalancing given the low attack values in RC. This was verified by testing.

  5. #85

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Using the melee weapon upgrade is a bad idea, because it doesn't add +1 to weapon attack, it adds about 6, which is massively unbalancing given the low attack values in RC. This was verified by testing.
    Is it supposed to be like that? In other mods those upgrades always seemed to me as if they were only adding 1 point. I remember having a swordsmiths guild in some mod in one of my castles and i'm pretty sure it didn't add 6 dmage.

    Also Hanny is referring to an upgrade system whith possible upgrades +1, +2 and +3 like it was in rome but i don't think it works that way anymore. The mediéval II upgrade system is binary meaning either it's upgraded or not, without different levels, at least for weapons. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Using the melee weapon upgrade is a bad idea, because it doesn't add +1 to weapon attack, it adds about 6, which is massively unbalancing given the low attack values in RC. This was verified by testing.
    Why bad?, each armour upgrade is 2.5 armour value increase, no one says thats unbalanced, but with 3( as in the mode i refernced) its greater than a single increase to weapon values. An attack of 4 with upgrade is now 10, defense of 6 with 2 upgrades is now 11 defense, so 4:11 changes to 10:11, why is that bad?, is it not just the change in weapon technology chnanging the balance of probability of combats outcome, like say damascus steel in the real world, or in LOTR the difference between a dwarf forged steel and orcs shoody iron sword.

    Besides what is bad in SS is not actually unbalancing in a fantasy setteing.

    Also Hanny is referring to an upgrade system whith possible upgrades +1, +2 and +3 like it was in rome but i don't think it works that way anymore. The mediéval II upgrade system is binary meaning either it's upgraded or not, without different levels, at least for weapons. Correct me if I'm mistaken.
    I may be wrong for the campaign, but since silver and gold upgrdes are in custom battles, i assumed it was poss to increasae it beyond a simple yes no upgrade.
    Last edited by Hanny; January 27, 2012 at 02:23 AM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  7. #87
    Nemesis_GR's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    It doesnt actually say it adds 6 damage...PB said this was verified by testing.Thats the reason it wasnt used in SS.Anyway it is hardcoded so cant be changed.(like armor upgrades giving around 2.5 instead of 1).So NO weapon upgades project.(btw as i already said i really dont think there are more than one weapon upgrades).

    Btw the swordsmiths guild weapon upgrade should be removed and replaced with an experience bonus for inf.Like the other guilds.

    @Cincinatus Orthang guard was classed Superior so when i updated dunleding axemen, average seemed enough.But Saruman's bodyguards are exceptional and dunleding bodyguards are Superior.Anyway i will check these units.

    Rohan scouts get a better lance and an attack bonus because they have no shields.

    Sorry but changing stats to your liking is NOT RC.There are rules...Unit qualities/weapons/armor etc.

    Edit @hanny there are no silver,gold weapon upgrades in custom battles.Only for armor.You are mixing mtw2 with rome...
    Last edited by Nemesis_GR; January 27, 2012 at 02:24 AM.
    Real Combat 1.4.1 UPDATED for TATW 4.4!
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=518028

  8. #88

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis_GR View Post
    It doesnt actually say it adds 6 damage...PB said this was verified by testing.
    Did you look at the test?. Problem is RC low attack base values.

    Sorry but changing stats to your liking is NOT RC.There are rules...Unit qualities/weapons/armor etc.
    Why is two at 2.5 for defense good, 3 better, but 1 at +6 attack bad?. Well its the rules/methodogy of RC that mean its bad, not that its a reflection of reality of technolgy on combat outcome.

    Edit @hanny there are no silver,gold weapon upgrades in custom battles.Only for armor.You are mixing mtw2 with rome...
    Ah, that explains it.

    Now all you need is to convince me dwarfs makeing fire resistant armour, ""the sword and harness of the least of the warriors of Turgon was worth more than the ransom of any king among Men." etc ina fantasy world means usinga weapon upgrade is unblancing in LOTR real world combat.
    Last edited by Hanny; January 27, 2012 at 02:58 AM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  9. #89

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis_GR View Post
    @Cincinatus Orthang guard was classed Superior so when i updated dunleding axemen, average seemed enough.But Saruman's bodyguards are exceptional and dunleding bodyguards are Superior.Anyway i will check these units.

    Rohan scouts get a better lance and an attack bonus because they have no shields.

    Sorry but changing stats to your liking is NOT RC.There are rules...Unit qualities/weapons/armor etc.
    That may all be true, but an attack of 3 when almost every other basic spearmen and even militia unit is about that as well makes no sense to me for a unit that costs as much as the guards do and spawn as slow as they do. If they are a unique special unit to guard the Orthanc and even Saruman, I do not understand why they cost what they do, which is more than any other Isengard unit, yet their attack is lower than all but the snaga troops. I am not sure I see how or what makes them good for that expense and stats compared to other units, and even similar spear type units.

    Dunlending Veterans/Axemen confused me as well. Their attack is about average for axemen, but are they not supposed to be Veterans or superior in some way? Would not having survived several engagements to become a veteran have made them a little better than average?

    So the scouts charge are higher than most other Rohan Horsemen?

    As far as rules, I apologize if I made any errors, but I thought I was using RR/RC stats. I got a the 1.8 PDF. I gave the Veterans/Axemen a superior grade bonus and the Orthanc Guard a Elite bonus was all. I love what you did but the attack numbers for those two units do not seem to have any better than average stats, even though the Unit's designation and nature, surely implies they are at least better than average.
    "It is worth while for those who disdain all human things for money, and who suppose that there is no room either for great honor or virtue, except where wealth is found, to listen to his story."
    - Livy 3.26

  10. #90

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    There was a Dwarven Wanderers submod compatible version of RC 1.1. Are you planning to upload a 1.3 version that implements them/ is compatible with them? Or is this submod no longer supported?
    I just want them back.

  11. #91
    Nemesis_GR's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    @Knel it is pretty easy to include them.Just tell which version you use,baron's,vanilla or vanilla+armor change and will upload it with them.hf

    @Cincinatus Orthanc guards have an attack of 3 because they are classed as a guard unit(-1 attack +1 defence).Anyway i agree with u,i will make them elite and maybe lower their numbers.They will be included in the next version.Dunledings are ok imo(they are average+impetuous).Tnx for the feedback!Btw can u upload the pdf u use?hf
    Real Combat 1.4.1 UPDATED for TATW 4.4!
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=518028

  12. #92

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Yes adding +6 attack is like making a 1H sword suddenly have more attack value than a 2H sword. A Mithril arrmor upgrade is worth 6-7 armor (it should really be a lot more IMHO but we'only have 3 armor upgrades to work with), so getting a melee weapon upgrade is like having a weapon that suddenly can deal with Mithril armor on even terms.

    Regarding the Orthanc Guard, the attack value is only one small part of how effective the unit is in combat. There are a very large number of factors and they all combine and interact with the circumstances. Some may be hidden, for example the animation types and speeds have a huge effect, be assured that attack values are formulated with these in mind. Also, increasing unit quality does not provide the same magnitude of increase in attack value with a spear that would be gained from say a sword, because the spear is a more simplistic weapon with less scope for skill to have an impact on combat outcomes.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    RC2.0 for TATW draft attached, likely will be final version.

  14. #94
    Nemesis_GR's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Nice!Only mounts are missing.Btw unique things like elven sword,dwarven armor(for same dale units),quality swords etc shouldnt be written somewhere or those arent used in 2.0?

    ps.whats the difference of lancer/charger or both are used together?
    ps2.I think Exceptional should remain exceptional in order to avoid confusion with optional unit type guard.

    Edit:about armor upgrades.Since there arent a lot unarmored units maybe lvl1 smith should upgrade leather etc.Basically going -1 all upgrades.And also add a partial leather armor(1) for the units that now are unarmored(basically some dale/eriador units).This would make the use of smiths more important.Btw all factions should get all get smith levels?(except the the isengard steel,mithril).And also those two special armor upgrades should be faction specific or settlement specific(isengard,moria)?
    Last edited by Nemesis_GR; January 27, 2012 at 05:36 AM.
    Real Combat 1.4.1 UPDATED for TATW 4.4!
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=518028

  15. #95

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    All unique racial bonuses are contained in the RACE MODIFIERS table at the end of the document.

    Note also the tables showing bonuses to stats from different equipment quality for different unit types and quality levels.

    All cavalry except ponies are either HA/Javelin, Lancer, Charger or Brawler. Each type has a variety of bonuses and penalties, some of which can only be seen in the descr_mounts file, including effects to attack, charge, defense, move speed, mass, heat/stamina, morale and unit size/x-radius:

    HA/Javelin are optimised for rapid movement and agility but are poor at charges and melee; these are usually mares rather than the stallions used for close combat
    Lancers are optimised for charge attacks/withdrawal and repeat: example (from Medieval) Demi-Lancers
    Chargers are not specialised: example Mamluks
    Brawlers are optimsed for melee combat: example ERE Kataphracts

    Each type also has a distinct animation set that affects how it acts in melee, eg brawlers will attempt to aggressively move forward and break up the enemy formation, whereas lancers will be more reluctant and will tend to back out.
    However, aggressive and high-quality units (eg French Gendarmes) will tend to act in melee more aggressively as well - Gendarmers are Lancers with Lancer bonuses and penalties but in melee will act more like brawlers.

    For armor upgrades I am aware things may have changed since the last time I was around TATW so that section needs to be examined and updated.
    Last edited by Point Blank; January 27, 2012 at 05:48 AM.

  16. #96
    Nemesis_GR's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Ok.About unit types(noble,warrior,order etc) and their numbers.Is/should be a faction bonus(gondor inf,rohan cav,dale archers etc) or not?
    Also which unit should be in each type?Could you describe them in short?

    ps.Dunedain units shouldn't also get a penalty in numbers?
    Last edited by Nemesis_GR; January 27, 2012 at 06:13 AM.
    Real Combat 1.4.1 UPDATED for TATW 4.4!
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=518028

  17. #97

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Sure, the numbers shown for unit types / categories are only guidelines and certainly can and should be altered to take account of each faction's specialties etc. This applies to TATW far more than medieval.

    I'll write a full description for the unit types.

  18. #98

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis_GR View Post
    @Knel it is pretty easy to include them.Just tell which version you use,baron's,vanilla or vanilla+armor change and will upload it with them.hf

    @Cincinatus Orthanc guards have an attack of 3 because they are classed as a guard unit(-1 attack +1 defence).Anyway i agree with u,i will make them elite and maybe lower their numbers.They will be included in the next version.Dunledings are ok imo(they are average+impetuous).Tnx for the feedback!Btw can u upload the pdf u use?hf

    I got it from this thread actually:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...3#post10845383

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    All unique racial bonuses are contained in the RACE MODIFIERS table at the end of the document.
    Understood, but would race modifier effect a Human race unit within a Orc faction like Isengard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis_GR View Post
    Edit:about armor upgrades.Since there arent a lot unarmored units maybe lvl1 smith should upgrade leather etc.Basically going -1 all upgrades.And also add a partial leather armor(1) for the units that now are unarmored(basically some dale/eriador units).This would make the use of smiths more important.Btw all factions should get all get smith levels?(except the the isengard steel,mithril).And also those two special armor upgrades should be faction specific or settlement specific(isengard,moria)?

    I agree with this. Isengard should probably have a unique forge or higher smith capacity than other factions. Moria maybe could have a smith boost but, I would argue only for or if it is under Dwarf control. If any elves had such a special forge, I would suggest it would be Mithlond. I do not know if any other location or faction would or could qualify for this kind of bonus.
    Last edited by Cincinatus; January 27, 2012 at 06:02 PM.
    "It is worth while for those who disdain all human things for money, and who suppose that there is no room either for great honor or virtue, except where wealth is found, to listen to his story."
    - Livy 3.26

  19. #99

    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis_GR View Post
    It doesnt actually say it adds 6 damage...PB said this was verified by testing.Thats the reason it wasnt used in SS.Anyway it is hardcoded so cant be changed.(like armor upgrades giving around 2.5 instead of 1).So NO weapon upgades project.(btw as i already said i really dont think there are more than one weapon upgrades).
    So if a unit for example has a basic attack of 4 and a basic armor of 6 and you add an upgrade point to both the unit description would say 5 attack and 7 armor but it is calculated as if it was 10 attack and 8.5 armor?

  20. #100
    Nemesis_GR's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Real Combat 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED for Baron's Samedi Compilation v5.0 and Vannila TATW 3.1 by Nemesis_GR ver1.3 RELEASED!

    @Lord Plankton yes.They are kind of bugged and also hardcoded so cant be changed.In RC armor values take this in consideration and weapon upgrade is not used.

    @Cincinatus as u can see the race modifier for evil units is for non-human.Anyway as PB said these are guidelines.

    When PB finishes RC 2.0 i will start adapting all units to it one by one.hf all
    Real Combat 1.4.1 UPDATED for TATW 4.4!
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=518028

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