Real Combat/Real Recruitment 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED to 3.2 Vanilla-version 1.5 RELEASED

[Nemesis_GR]

It doesnt actually say it adds 6 damage...PB said this was verified by testing.Thats the reason it wasnt used in SS.Anyway it is hardcoded so cant be changed.(like armor upgrades giving around 2.5 instead of 1).So NO weapon upgades project.(btw as i already said i really dont think there are more than one weapon upgrades).

Btw the swordsmiths guild weapon upgrade should be removed and replaced with an experience bonus for inf.Like the other guilds.

@Cincinatus Orthang guard was classed Superior so when i updated dunleding axemen, average seemed enough.But Saruman's bodyguards are exceptional and dunleding bodyguards are Superior.Anyway i will check these units.

Rohan scouts get a better lance and an attack bonus because they have no shields.

Sorry but changing stats to your liking is NOT RC.There are rules...Unit qualities/weapons/armor etc.

Edit @hanny there are no silver,gold weapon upgrades in custom battles.Only for armor.You are mixing mtw2 with rome...

[Hanny]

It doesnt actually say it adds 6 damage...PB said this was verified by testing.

Did you look at the test?. Problem is RC low attack base values.

Sorry but changing stats to your liking is NOT RC.There are rules...Unit qualities/weapons/armor etc.

Why is two at 2.5 for defense good, 3 better, but 1 at +6 attack bad?. Well its the rules/methodogy of RC that mean its bad, not that its a reflection of reality of technolgy on combat outcome.

Edit @hanny there are no silver,gold weapon upgrades in custom battles.Only for armor.You are mixing mtw2 with rome...

Ah, that explains it.

Now all you need is to convince me dwarfs makeing fire resistant armour, ""the sword and harness of the least of the warriors of Turgon was worth more than the ransom of any king among Men." etc ina fantasy world means usinga weapon upgrade is unblancing in LOTR real world combat.

[Cincinatus]

@Cincinatus Orthang guard was classed Superior so when i updated dunleding axemen, average seemed enough.But Saruman's bodyguards are exceptional and dunleding bodyguards are Superior.Anyway i will check these units.

Rohan scouts get a better lance and an attack bonus because they have no shields.

Sorry but changing stats to your liking is NOT RC.There are rules...Unit qualities/weapons/armor etc.

That may all be true, but an attack of 3 when almost every other basic spearmen and even militia unit is about that as well makes no sense to me for a unit that costs as much as the guards do and spawn as slow as they do. If they are a unique special unit to guard the Orthanc and even Saruman, I do not understand why they cost what they do, which is more than any other Isengard unit, yet their attack is lower than all but the snaga troops. I am not sure I see how or what makes them good for that expense and stats compared to other units, and even similar spear type units.

Dunlending Veterans/Axemen confused me as well. Their attack is about average for axemen, but are they not supposed to be Veterans or superior in some way? Would not having survived several engagements to become a veteran have made them a little better than average?

So the scouts charge are higher than most other Rohan Horsemen?

As far as rules, I apologize if I made any errors, but I thought I was using RR/RC stats. I got a the 1.8 PDF. I gave the Veterans/Axemen a superior grade bonus and the Orthanc Guard a Elite bonus was all. I love what you did but the attack numbers for those two units do not seem to have any better than average stats, even though the Unit's designation and nature, surely implies they are at least better than average.

[Knel]

There was a Dwarven Wanderers submod compatible version of RC 1.1. Are you planning to upload a 1.3 version that implements them/ is compatible with them? Or is this submod no longer supported?
I just want them back.

[Lord Plankton]

It doesnt actually say it adds 6 damage...PB said this was verified by testing.Thats the reason it wasnt used in SS.Anyway it is hardcoded so cant be changed.(like armor upgrades giving around 2.5 instead of 1).So NO weapon upgades project.(btw as i already said i really dont think there are more than one weapon upgrades).

So if a unit for example has a basic attack of 4 and a basic armor of 6 and you add an upgrade point to both the unit description would say 5 attack and 7 armor but it is calculated as if it was 10 attack and 8.5 armor?

[Nemesis_GR]

@Lord Plankton yes.They are kind of bugged and also hardcoded so cant be changed.In RC armor values take this in consideration and weapon upgrade is not used.

@Cincinatus as u can see the race modifier for evil units is for non-human.Anyway as PB said these are guidelines.

When PB finishes RC 2.0 i will start adapting all units to it one by one.hf all

[Hanny]

Using the melee weapon upgrade is a bad idea, because it doesn't add +1 to weapon attack, it adds about 6, which is massively unbalancing given the low attack values in RC. This was verified by testing.

Why bad?, each armour upgrade is 2.5 armour value increase, no one says thats unbalanced, but with 3( as in the mode i refernced) its greater than a single increase to weapon values. An attack of 4 with upgrade is now 10, defense of 6 with 2 upgrades is now 11 defense, so 4:11 changes to 10:11, why is that bad?, is it not just the change in weapon technology chnanging the balance of probability of combats outcome, like say damascus steel in the real world, or in LOTR the difference between a dwarf forged steel and orcs shoody iron sword.

Besides what is bad in SS is not actually unbalancing in a fantasy setteing.

Also Hanny is referring to an upgrade system whith possible upgrades +1, +2 and +3 like it was in rome but i don't think it works that way anymore. The mediéval II upgrade system is binary meaning either it's upgraded or not, without different levels, at least for weapons. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

I may be wrong for the campaign, but since silver and gold upgrdes are in custom battles, i assumed it was poss to increasae it beyond a simple yes no upgrade.

[Point Blank]

Yes adding +6 attack is like making a 1H sword suddenly have more attack value than a 2H sword. A Mithril arrmor upgrade is worth 6-7 armor (it should really be a lot more IMHO but we'only have 3 armor upgrades to work with), so getting a melee weapon upgrade is like having a weapon that suddenly can deal with Mithril armor on even terms.

Regarding the Orthanc Guard, the attack value is only one small part of how effective the unit is in combat. There are a very large number of factors and they all combine and interact with the circumstances. Some may be hidden, for example the animation types and speeds have a huge effect, be assured that attack values are formulated with these in mind. Also, increasing unit quality does not provide the same magnitude of increase in attack value with a spear that would be gained from say a sword, because the spear is a more simplistic weapon with less scope for skill to have an impact on combat outcomes.

[Point Blank]

RC2.0 for TATW draft attached, likely will be final version.

[Nemesis_GR]

Nice!Only mounts are missing.Btw unique things like elven sword,dwarven armor(for same dale units),quality swords etc shouldnt be written somewhere or those arent used in 2.0?

ps.whats the difference of lancer/charger or both are used together?
ps2.I think Exceptional should remain exceptional in order to avoid confusion with optional unit type guard.

Edit:about armor upgrades.Since there arent a lot unarmored units maybe lvl1 smith should upgrade leather etc.Basically going -1 all upgrades.And also add a partial leather armor(1) for the units that now are unarmored(basically some dale/eriador units).This would make the use of smiths more important.Btw all factions should get all get smith levels?(except the the isengard steel,mithril).And also those two special armor upgrades should be faction specific or settlement specific(isengard,moria)?

[Point Blank]

All unique racial bonuses are contained in the RACE MODIFIERS table at the end of the document.

Note also the tables showing bonuses to stats from different equipment quality for different unit types and quality levels.

All cavalry except ponies are either HA/Javelin, Lancer, Charger or Brawler. Each type has a variety of bonuses and penalties, some of which can only be seen in the descr_mounts file, including effects to attack, charge, defense, move speed, mass, heat/stamina, morale and unit size/x-radius:

HA/Javelin are optimised for rapid movement and agility but are poor at charges and melee; these are usually mares rather than the stallions used for close combat
Lancers are optimised for charge attacks/withdrawal and repeat: example (from Medieval) Demi-Lancers
Chargers are not specialised: example Mamluks
Brawlers are optimsed for melee combat: example ERE Kataphracts

Each type also has a distinct animation set that affects how it acts in melee, eg brawlers will attempt to aggressively move forward and break up the enemy formation, whereas lancers will be more reluctant and will tend to back out.
However, aggressive and high-quality units (eg French Gendarmes) will tend to act in melee more aggressively as well - Gendarmers are Lancers with Lancer bonuses and penalties but in melee will act more like brawlers.

For armor upgrades I am aware things may have changed since the last time I was around TATW so that section needs to be examined and updated.

[Nemesis_GR]

Ok.About unit types(noble,warrior,order etc) and their numbers.Is/should be a faction bonus(gondor inf,rohan cav,dale archers etc) or not?
Also which unit should be in each type?Could you describe them in short?

ps.Dunedain units shouldn't also get a penalty in numbers?

[Point Blank]

Sure, the numbers shown for unit types / categories are only guidelines and certainly can and should be altered to take account of each faction's specialties etc. This applies to TATW far more than medieval.

I'll write a full description for the unit types.

[Point Blank]

Moneybags14 will be working on the unit statgen spreadsheet, doing it all manually frankly takes ages and its very easy to make mistakes.

Remember the Guide is only a part of the story, there have been many, many updates to other files such as mounts, projectiles (eg accuracy updates for different weapons employed in different ways, updated projectile types and racial accuracy effects) and especially to many animations, which combine with updates such as the new cavalry types and stats to make each unit's behaviour and capabilities much more distinctive than before. Other examples would be how cut-and-thrust swords have different animations, stats, attack speeds and space required to use than pure cutting/hacking weapons, and a new morale and mental stats system.

These changes work to further emphasise the differences between races, unit types and skill levels, along with such additions as the new weapon/missile/armor/shield quality modifiers, which stack with racial modifiers to very much make units such as Eldar extremely formidable.

[Malanthor]

Good stuff nemesis, keep the versions coming. i am sure a productive man like yourself will have the all units converted to the new PB version in a day or two. :>
And thanks to PB for the new and better version.

[GueulEclator]

Hey nemesis. Do you consider your work finished right now or do you think of adding a new version soon?

[Nemesis_GR]

No of course it is not finished.I ll upload today 1.3b with fixed uruk bodyguards(they were a halberd unit in 1.4 and i forgot to delete some values like phalanx,movement speed 0.7 etc) and new orthanc guards classed as elite.

Now that the main project is done doing small changes like unit types/stats is a matter of minutes in most cases.So it is not about me but about how much feedback i get.Hf all

[Knel]

thanks for the upload nemesis.
I just played my first battle with trolls with RC and their charge is pretty weak compared to cavalry, conidering enemy casualities. In my opinion their charge should be as strong as cavalry´s.
Or is this "problem" not solveable because trolls are infantry?

[GueulEclator]

No of course it is not finished.I ll upload today 1.3b with fixed uruk bodyguards(they were a halberd unit in 1.4 and i forgot to delete some values like phalanx,movement speed 0.7 etc) and new orthanc guards classed as elite.

Now that the main project is done doing small changes like unit types/stats is a matter of minutes in most cases.So it is not about me but about how much feedback i get.Hf all

Apart from that, what other kind of detail would there be to fix?

[jimmy55]

How does one make this submod compatible with the extended map barrons ver? is it possible and has anyone done it?