Real Combat/Real Recruitment 1.4.1 by Point Blank UPDATED to 3.2 Vanilla-version 1.5 RELEASED

[Malanthor]

Sounds good Nemesis. Ime having good fun with the work youve done here, so cheers.

[Atlanton]

I posted this question in the guides forums, but considering that I'm using the RC submod, it's probably more relevant here.

With 1.3, my Eriador campaign is slowing down, because I cannot beat Gundabad armies without wearing down my melee troops.

It seems that although Eriador's specialty is in ranged units, the armor of the OoG makes it so their troops reach my line of spearman with little/few casualties. Of course, since OoG troops are much better in melee than the Breeland Militia, it's important that I either cause a lot of casualties of archers or have cavalry for some hammer/anvil.

Any suggestions for making better use of the units? Should I be kiting more or using guard mode to preserve the Breeland Militia while archers do their work? With the casualties I'm taking, I'm going to need at least 2 full stacks + reinforcements to defeat the Orcs, which makes me feel like I'm doing it wrong.

[Nemesis_GR]

Eriador has the weakest roster as it should.You should play defencively at least until the barracks event so you can get some elite dunedain units.
Btw eriadors specialty is not archers.They have no specialty...

[Malanthor]

Yeah, i suggest you play intelligent and beat on the AIs less-than-man intelligence for all its worth. Lot of fun stuff you can do to keep him off you. Among other, may i suggest sallying forth when you are besieged to whittle down their numberd and using your generals cavalry extensivly to spare your other units since they replicate. Ofc exploiting the stupid ai gets booring after a while, but you should manage til the barrack event, also what abouth making temporary peace with em? I know it sucks having to bring a bunch of gobbos your treasure chests, but if its that or extinction...
By the way nemesis, how did you remove the spawn-lot-of units script-when-faction-is-weak? Did you erase all the lines or just the one at the top.

[Aper]

Guys "creatures" are not exactly using the RC categories,weapons,armor etc and as i already said this game was never meant to have trolls,ents,sauron etc so they cant be exactly accurate...

Btw sauron/balrog get owned by javelins since they are "elephants".One volley and they dead...
And for trolls u just need 2h AP inf.Pin them with a cheap unit then charge in the shock infantry.Archers/artillery are effective also.

Stop complaining about these units.They are not OP by any stretched imagination...You just have to face them with the appropriate strategy...

Anyway i will take a look at all of them for next version which probably will be final.

Let me be clear, Nemesis: I'm not complaining about your work, I'm really grateful for that, and if I don't like something I can change that, like I did.
It's not about gameplay, me and others can kill the beasts, simply we can't understand the rationale behind trolls being on par or better than any other creature in the game, while in lore they should be just big brutish guys.
The only reason, I suppose, is to have them to perform like in some (bad, I think) action scenes in the movies, and it's a very poor reason IMHO.
Anyway, I'm fine with whatever you do, I'm just reasoning and suggesting here, not bashing.

[Nemesis_GR]

Hey guys final version 1.4 is up.I will not make any more big changes until PB releases RC 2.0.(except if something really important comes up).But I will release a bugfixer for some spawned units missing textures/cards once i narrow down exactly which units have that bug.
Btw 1.4 is for vannilla +the new armor upgrades system.I will release a version for barons when i get some time.Exams coming up...
Enjoy!

@Aper no problem mate.I actually appreciate feedback!But imo trolls are fine for gameplay reasons.I mean the evil factions get no cavalry and mostly low quality units so they should have something to compensate for that.

[Amonero]

Hey guys final version 1.4 is up.I will not make any more big changes until PB releases RC 2.0.(except if something really important comes up).But I will release a bugfixer for some spawned units missing textures/cards once i narrow down exactly which units have that bug.
Btw 1.4 is for vannilla +the new armor upgrades system.I will release a version for barons when i get some time.Exams coming up...
Enjoy!

@Aper no problem mate.I actually appreciate feedback!But imo trolls are fine for gameplay reasons.I mean the evil factions get no cavalry and mostly low quality units so they should have something to compensate for that.

Cool! Is it compatible with AUM 3.0?

These are the units I've found to be missing textures/unit cards:

Crusading Orc Looters/ Ranged Looters
Rohan Militia, most likely spawned by garrison script

[Nemesis_GR]

Here is a version with AUM.It should work...
Btw i ll probably re-do all the extra/free units when i get the time.hf

[Kolaris8472]

Still got a lot of icon-less/texture-less Goblin Infantry/Goblin Band units for Gundabad/Misty Mountains. I'm 90% sure they're only from garrison scripts and weakened stack spam scripts though, as I've just run into both in quick succession...think I'll just remove them myself.

[Amonero]

Still got a lot of icon-less/texture-less Goblin Infantry/Goblin Band units for Gundabad/Misty Mountains. I'm 90% sure they're only from garrison scripts and weakened stack spam scripts though, as I've just run into both in quick succession...think I'll just remove them myself.

I think so too. Forgot to mention those.

Cheers for the AUM version Nemesis!

[Amonero]

I posted this question in the guides forums, but considering that I'm using the RC submod, it's probably more relevant here.

With 1.3, my Eriador campaign is slowing down, because I cannot beat Gundabad armies without wearing down my melee troops.

It seems that although Eriador's specialty is in ranged units, the armor of the OoG makes it so their troops reach my line of spearman with little/few casualties. Of course, since OoG troops are much better in melee than the Breeland Militia, it's important that I either cause a lot of casualties of archers or have cavalry for some hammer/anvil.

Any suggestions for making better use of the units? Should I be kiting more or using guard mode to preserve the Breeland Militia while archers do their work? With the casualties I'm taking, I'm going to need at least 2 full stacks + reinforcements to defeat the Orcs, which makes me feel like I'm doing it wrong.

If you need that many troops, you're doing it wrong.
As Eriador you need a combined arms approach to contend with the numbers of the orcs - you can't trust the superiority of your troops or your heavy armour, since you have neither.

Thick blocks of militia to hold the line, bandits as speed-bumps, and cavalry only for rear or flank charges. Your weak archers are best used to flank or run behind already engaged units and pepper them in the rear with flaming arrows.

Use terrain to your advantage, move to favourable terrain with your troops on the campaign map rather than attacking.

Eriador IS weak, but it can be fun to play with as you really need to maximize your regiments strengths. When Arnor emerges things will get alot easier, as your then have both armour, offensive capabilities, good ranged capabilities and heavy cavalry.

[Kolaris8472]

The Orc Looters that evil factions can pick up on Invasions also have no UI icon, although their textures are fine on the battle map.

[Aper]

@Aper no problem mate.I actually appreciate feedback!But imo trolls are fine for gameplay reasons.I mean the evil factions get no cavalry and mostly low quality units so they should have something to compensate for that.

Well, you are right I guess... Buy I have to point out that the usual orc-factions tactic in lore is to swarm and encircle enemies, not use creatures like shock troops in frontal attacks, be them trolls, wargs or whatever, and I think TATW gameplay should reflect this.
The "right" balance in my opinion should be: trolls better than any mortal unit, and than most elven unit (eldar swordsmen should be dedicated troll-slayers guessing from their peculiar weapon), but worse than any other creature except spiders (that in lore are really not that great).
IMO they should perform more as extremely heavy infantry than as elephant units, like they do now: this can be achieved by lowering their stats, especially their mass, and increasing their numbers.
I'll try to achieve this kind of balance in my EDU, if you are interested I can send it to you by PM when (and if) I'll be successful.

[Nemesis_GR]

Yep i did some checking and mostly it is unit cards missing and not textures.I will do some extensive testing today and release the bugfixer version.hf all

Edit: @Aper yep balancing the creatures is tough...feel free to share your balancing when it is done and i ll take a look.hf

[Nemesis_GR]

Sorry for double post.I think i found the problem with the unit cards missing.It seems that the attribute mercenary_unit screws something up for some units.I uploaded a fixed 1.4 version.Please inform me if there are more bugged units.hf all!

[Atlanton]

If you need that many troops, you're doing it wrong.
As Eriador you need a combined arms approach to contend with the numbers of the orcs - you can't trust the superiority of your troops or your heavy armour, since you have neither.

Thick blocks of militia to hold the line, bandits as speed-bumps, and cavalry only for rear or flank charges. Your weak archers are best used to flank or run behind already engaged units and pepper them in the rear with flaming arrows.

Use terrain to your advantage, move to favourable terrain with your troops on the campaign map rather than attacking.

Eriador IS weak, but it can be fun to play with as you really need to maximize your regiments strengths. When Arnor emerges things will get alot easier, as your then have both armour, offensive capabilities, good ranged capabilities and heavy cavalry.

Well I was doing pretty well using the tactics that you mentioned with spear militia, a few archers, and flanking merchants/generals. However, I've been finding most of my success is due to Gundabad sending out generaless stacks with low morale. When facing stacks with generals, I have to rely on sniping their general (and hoping there aren't trolls) in order to make the enemy route quickly enough. Otherwise, my units get swamped by the orcs.

And what I thought was difficult with Gundabad has become even worse with Isengard... Their armor, high stats and troop numbers absolutely decimate my units, and even with general sniping, their high morale keeps them from routing. The crossbow units in particular are really nasty because they have much better melee stats than militia, while having more men and an armor piercing/super effective crossbow.

This past game has really been frustrating as I'm at turn 154 with everything needed for Arnor emergence except Hoarwell (owned by OoMM) and Thorbad (just stolen from me by Isengard). With the high army upkeep from all of my generals/governors, I cannot afford more than 2-3 10 unit defense armies. At this point, I'm unsure if I'll be able to survive, let alone successfully transition to Arnor if OoTMM, OoGM, or Isengard sends a stack of Uruks or Trolls.

[Nemesis_GR]

1.Crossbows dont have AP in RC.But they have higher attack than bows.
2.Dont adopt generals except if someone is really good because they are expensive(250g upkeep).Keeping a governor in every settlement is not worth it.One governor in bree and one in annuminas is enough.(gandalf-aragorn are the best for this task).
3.Killing the enemy general can also be done with a well-aimed charge at the left side of the bodyguard unit.
4.You should play a little more agressive at the start and secure your arnor regions fast and then hold them until you are ready to reform arnor.
5.You should have two armies one full stack attacking oog and a half one defending your south-east border from isengard/ootm if they feel like attacking you.Keep only free-upkeep garrisons everywhere else.
6.Btw at turn 154 you should have an elite army (with dunedain rangers/battle ready dunedain inf/mounted dunedain which are very powerful...) and use it to attack oog.
7.Maybe you should improve your combat skills.

[Atlanton]

1.Crossbows dont have AP in RC.But they have higher attack than bows.
2.Dont adopt generals except if someone is really good because they are expensive(250g upkeep).Keeping a governor in every settlement is not worth it.One governor in bree and one in annuminas is enough.(gandalf-aragorn are the best for this task).
3.Killing the enemy general can also be done with a well-aimed charge at the left side of the bodyguard unit.
4.You should play a little more agressive at the start and secure your arnor regions fast and then hold them until you are ready to reform arnor.
5.You should have two armies one full stack attacking oog and a half one defending your south-east border from isengard/ootm if they feel like attacking you.Keep only free-upkeep garrisons everywhere else.
6.Btw at turn 154 you should have an elite army (with dunedain rangers/battle ready dunedain inf/mounted dunedain which are very powerful...) and use it to attack oog.
7.Maybe you should improve your combat skills.

Thanks for the advice.

I really haven't been adopting too much unless they really are remarkable, but at the same time, I've been spreading them out as governors. I'm sure if I auto-managed some of the towns, I would have a lot more to show for my military. And IIRC, the upkeep for 50 unit generals is 500 gold.

In regard to being more aggressive, I was very aggressive at first, but in a different direction. I went north-east to Luneleath (sp) and Nunelial (sp) and went south to Tharbad and the castle west of Tharbad. Unfortunately, this left Hoarwell and Coldfells to the Orcs. I was able to get Coldfells in the past couple turns, but Isengard declared war and destroyed garrison in Tharbad before I could reinforce, hence my present situation.

I have dunedain rangers and battle-ready dunedains, but my issue is more economic. Since turn one, I have been maximizing growth/economy and keeping upkeep slots full in all of towns; in addition to at least one city upgrade for every town, I now have the large walls for Ammuninas and Bree and have filled the upkeep slots with the most expensive unit possible; this means that most either have merchant cavalry or battle-ready dunedain.

Meanwhile, my attacking armies have been militia and bandit based (with the odd dunedain ranger/lumberjack thrown in) because of the low upkeep. If I were to actually move my elite units out of free upkeep, I would start going to bankrupt.

I think the main issue I'm having is the number of passive generals I have. If I assembled them into armies, I'd probably be having a lot issue with high upkeep and mediocre defense to show for it.

[Knel]

In my Eriador campaign new family members get 50 bodyguards but the starting ones have only 20 guys.
I play with huge (max) unit size, with version 1.3, BS compilation + dwarven wanderers compatible version you posted for me a few pages before.
At the moment my faction heir, the guy who starts in Amon Sul, has less (about 30) bodyguards than his younger broders who come of age during the campaign. I think this is not intended.

Is it possible to make troll charges causing more casulaities? At the moment their charge looks only strong when they cut through infantry formation, but 95% of the infantry that flies around during a troll charge stands up again. I asked this already on page 6 but got no answer. Another solution would be to increase their numbers, every human player focuses trolls with archers. With 2-3 archer units you can kill a whole troll unit easy from the distance.
Maybe a combination of the 2 would make them more "realistic".

Silvan elves have pretty the same elite infantry as High elves (spearmen, 1h-swordsmen, 2h-swordsmen), but the silvans have lower numbers and also a bit lower stats. Lower stats and less men/elves per unit seems a bit too much for me.

I´m not complaining, it´s just feedback. I love this (sub)mod.

PS: dwarven wanderers compatible version for 1.4 (BS-compilation) would be nice.
Sorry I´ve just seen that 1.4 isn´t yet available/uploaded for BS-compilation.

[Qba]

In my Eriador campaign new family members get 50 bodyguards but the starting ones have only 20 guys.
I play with huge (max) unit size, with version 1.3, BS compilation + dwarven wanderers compatible version you posted for me a few pages before.
At the moment my faction heir, the guy who starts in Amon Sul, has less (about 30) bodyguards than his younger broders who come of age during the campaign. I think this is not intended.

Faction Leader's and Heir's bodyguards are always bigger than regular general's bodyguards.