Passage north of Pelargil and lack of it by Osgiliath

[Tomislawus]

I think that the passage north of Pelargil should be scraped - its a lorerape, counter-intuitive and not that good for gameplay anyway. Its just stupid when Mordor besieges W. Osgiliath from the west side - the whole point of Cairn Andros and Osgiliath is that they are a kind of frontline between Gondor and Mordor.

On the other hand there needs to be a passage just by Osgiliath. Why you ask? Because you can just permanently siege the other half of the city from turn one effectivelly cutting off the AI from getting on the other side or bringing reinforcements. I dont like games where I have to handicap myself so the poor AI can have a chance.

[Pinkie Pie]

Just to get this right. You want to remove a passage because it is raping the lore and allows W. Osgiliath to be attacked from behind and then you want a passage put in that is raping the lore to give Mordor a way to attack W. Osgiliath without going on the bridge?

You could by the way NOT leave an army besieging E. Osgiliath, this is not considered you handicapping yourself but is infact considering as you not abusing a minor issue with the bridge.

[paradamed]

Just to get this right. You want to remove a passage because it is raping the lore and allows W. Osgiliath to be attacked from behind and then you want a passage put in that is raping the lore to give Mordor a way to attack W. Osgiliath without going on the bridge?

You could by the way NOT leave an army besieging E. Osgiliath, this is not considered you handicapping yourself but is infact considering as you not abusing a minor issue with the bridge.

Hehe, I thought the same.

[Tomislawus]

Just to get this right. You want to remove a passage because it is raping the lore and allows W. Osgiliath to be attacked from behind and then you want a passage put in that is raping the lore to give Mordor a way to attack W. Osgiliath without going on the bridge?

You could by the way NOT leave an army besieging E. Osgiliath, this is not considered you handicapping yourself but is in fact considering as you not abusing a minor issue with the bridge.

What evil could come (and how is that a lorerape) from giving armies the ability to attack W. Osgiliath from the east without the need to get into E. Osgiliath? If the passage is small, no army will be able to get pass the river to the other side without being blocked, as long there is at least one unit in any of the cities. How is besieging E. Osgiliath with 3 units of militia making impossible for a full stack of orcs impossible to enter E. Osgiliath and attack the besieging force and besiege W. Osgiliath not a major lorerape (logicrape)?

This is a game I play for the challenge and therefore I want to do everything that is allowed in the game to win. Not besieging Osgiliath so the enemy can counter attack is handicapping yourself because doing so (perma sieging Osgiliath) is using means available to the player by the game and not simply cheating (by breaking rules of the game).

If you were playing with someone competitively and decided to handicap yourself because of the poorly designed rules of the game and your opponent inability to overcome that, how would you feel if you were to lose or win later/with less score than you thought you could have? I would feel compelled to to replay the game.

This is a game which rules can be easily changed, so why would you rather change the way you play (by handicapping yourself) instead of changing rules which were badly designed?

[Pinkie Pie]

[QUOTE=Tomislawus;10917466]What evil could come (and how is that a lorerape) from giving armies the ability to attack W. Osgiliath from the east without the need to get into E. Osgiliath? If the passage is small, no army will be able to get pass the river to the other side without being blocked, as long there is at least one unit in any of the cities. How is besieging E. Osgiliath with 3 units of militia making impossible for a full stack of orcs impossible to enter E. Osgiliath and attack the besieging force and besiege W. Osgiliath not a major lorerape (logicrape)?
It is lorerape because the two parts of the city are infact one whole city on each side of a river, attacking E. Osgiliath via W. Osgiliath/W. Osgiliath via E. Osgiliath is the only viable way unless you go through another crossing and strike from behind which by the way you have stated is annoying
.

This is a game I play for the challenge and therefore I want to do everything that is allowed in the game to win. Not besieging Osgiliath so the enemy can counter attack is handicapping yourself because doing so (perma sieging Osgiliath) is using means available to the player by the game and not simply cheating (by breaking rules of the game).

Actualy it is abusing flaws within the game just like setting up your army in the corner of a map or using an entire stack of elven archers to destroy everything.

If you were playing with someone competitively and decided to handicap yourself because of the poorly designed rules of the game and your opponent inability to overcome that, how would you feel if you were to lose or win later/with less score than you thought you could have? I would feel compelled to to replay the game.

I personally would not abuse the bridge at Osgiliath to constantly lay siege to one of the cities and I would expect that the other play not do the same thing.

This is a game which rules can be easily changed, so why would you rather change the way you play (by handicapping yourself) instead of changing rules which were badly designed?

Because the mod can not be designed to everyones specifications. Most people are happy with the passages to stay the same so why make changes to the mod to suit a few people?

[Vespasian92]

I dont like games where I have to handicap myself so the poor AI can have a chance.

And what do you think the Pelargir passage is for, if not to help the AI Harad pose the kind of threat to Gondor that they were in the books, which is not lorerape. The AI is very poor at unscripted naval invasions IMO, and the Pelargir passage provides a second land way into Gondor so the human Gondor player can no longer use a single stack at the other passage and hold off Harad. This way you don't have to handicap to let Harad have a chance, when before a human Gondor might have.

[Lazy]

And what do you think the Pelargir passage is for, if not to help the AI Harad pose the kind of threat to Gondor that they were in the books, which is not lorerape. The AI is very poor...

and because of this poorness Mordor takes the regoin south of Pelagir more often then Harad!

If that happens AND Mordor holds E. Osgiliath weird things do happen...
Try to send a unit from Minas Morgul to W. Osgiliath... the shortest path will be... throug Pelagir!
So...
passage = fail

You want to remove a passage because it is raping the lore and allows W. Osgiliath to be attacked from behind and then you want a passage put in that is raping the lore to give Mordor a way to attack W. Osgiliath without going on the bridge?

That´s not what he wrote!

Because you can just permanently siege the other half of the city from turn one effectivelly cutting off the AI from getting on the other side or bringing reinforcements. I dont like games where I have to handicap myself so the poor AI can have a chance.

Mordur is not Jesus and this passage sucks!
Scripted attacks are the way to go! There´s even a submod doing that

[EllEzDee]

Top tip: you can block it with a ship. Any ship. Just as long as it's placed over that passage.
The one further south, near Linhir, can't be blocked.

[Ngugi]

OMFG - can people stop using the word lorerape for things that is not nearly such (and most often for things they dislike, while what they like they do not care for lore about...)?

To begin with it makes the word so overused that it do not have any meaning any longer.

More importantly, it is not lorerape - lorerape would be to put a Transformers-faction into the game or anything equal that really screw the creation of Tolkien.

[kingman1337]

OMFG - can people stop using the word lorerape for things that is not nearly such (and most often for things they dislike, while what they like they do not care for lore about...)?

To begin with it makes the word so overused that it do not have any meaning any longer.

More importantly, it is not lorerape - lorerape would be to put a Transformers-faction into the game or anything equal that really screw the creation of Tolkien.

Optimus Prime vs Sauron.

I've always wanted to see that.

[Lazy]

Optimus Prime vs Sauron.

I've always wanted to see that.

That´s lore-rape as everyone knows Optimus Prime gets killed in the first episode of the original series ( if I remember it right )

[lolIsuck]

Yea but it's totally lore rape since Haradrim had no idea how to build small boats/rafts to cross the river and the AI can totally do a naval invasion

[Hallow]

I'm curious, did Harad not work well prior to the Pelargir crossing being added for most people? In my games it always seemed like Harad did fine with the Delta crossing near Linhir. The Pelargir one just seems like overkill.

[Ngugi]

I'm curious, did Harad not work well prior to the Pelargir crossing being added for most people? In my games it always seemed like Harad did fine with the Delta crossing near Linhir. The Pelargir one just seems like overkill.

Think it was that you could hold one single settlement and that way cut Harad from posing a threat to Gondor that was considered a main fault in their relationship.

[Pinkie Pie]

And that would be sarcasm

[lolIsuck]

And that would be sarcasm

great observation skills

[Pinkie Pie]

great observation skills

I am going to guess that is not sarcasm.

Harad was always to easy to defend against with just one crossing and to be honest I think the Gondor campaign should be the toughest with Mordor being the easiest.

[Emperor of Hell]

The crossing of pelargir is actually lore accurate:
Here's one of the few maps made by tolkien

You can see the road going from the crossing of the poros to pelargir, why on earth would you build a road there if you can't cross the rivier

[Hallow]

why on earth would you build a road there if you can't cross the rivier

Haven't you heard? The lower Anduin is known for its superb beaches.

[fireblade]

You can see the road going from the crossing of the poros to pelargir, why on earth would you build a road there if you can't cross the rivier

Yeah, you could cross there, only you had to pass through Pelargir itself (2 bridges that is, because Osgiliath was the last place where the Anduin could be crossed with one bridge).

So really accurate would be to let the passage exist, but make it so you had to capture Pelargir before being able to cross.