Meaning of all

[Tomislawus]

So I was thinking about the whole Tolkien trilogy. Im sure its all have been already said and whatnot, just wanted to start a disscusion and see what you guys think.

1. Middlearth is Europe.
2. War for Middlearth is WWII.
3. Isengard is nazi Germany (Saruman demagogy, modern and high quality army).
4. Rohan is Poland (attacked as the first one, fancy horses).
5. Mordor is USSR (massive armies but poor quality, is in the east).
6. Gondor is USA (saves whole of Middlearth, wants to use the one ring).
7. One ring is the atom bomb.
8. Ents and elves are the western Europe (they dont want to get involved at the beggining).

I still dont understand the meaning of Frodo and Sam gay relationship though. What do you think?

[Hallow]

1. Middlearth is Europe.

Possible.

2. War for Middlearth is WWII.

No.

3. Isengard is nazi Germany (Saruman demagogy, modern and high quality army).

No.

4. Rohan is Poland (attacked as the first one, fancy horses).

No.

5. Mordor is USSR (massive armies but poor quality, is in the east).

No. Not to mention you've got the sides a bit mixed there.

6. Gondor is USA (saves whole of Middlearth, wants to use the one ring).

No.

7. One ring is the atom bomb.

No.

8. Ents and elves are the western Europe (they dont want to get involved at the beggining).

No.

What do you think?

I think you're analyzing something in a way that a lot of people do but has actually been specifically denied by Tolkien himself. Lord of the Rings is not an allegory on WWII.

[Ultra123]

wow i thought this thread was going to tell us all the meaning of life i was getting my old dusty bible white shroud and thorns ready for the second coming,,,, but nevermind,,,,, thread destroyed by Hallow anyway

[Hallow]

thread destroyed by Hallow anyway

Aaaww now you made me feel bad

[mattttb]

Interesting interpretations, but Tolkein actually wrote that any similarities between the story of LotR and WWII are entirely accidental.

Quoting from the foreword of The Fellowship of the Ring:

"As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical...The crucial chapter, 'The Shadow of the Past', is one of the oldest parts of the tale. It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted...little or nothing in it was modified by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.

The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dûr would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth."

[Andor Vex]

Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.

That sounds a bit mysterious to me.

I still dont understand the meaning of Frodo and Sam gay relationship though.

I try to think of it as really, really strong friendship. I think a "gay" relationship would require romantic involvement, which the 2 lacked. Though it does get a little bit creepy when it goes somewhere along the lines of: "Sam looked at him and he thought Frodo was so very pretty".

[mattttb]

That sounds a bit mysterious to me.

I think he was referring to the USA and Russia piggybacking off of the research of German physicists into nuclear weapons. I have to admit though, Tolkein's sarcastic and satirical re-interpretation of the War of the Rings sounds like an interesting story

[Dago Red]

No, not at all.

Tolkien began writing it all before WWII even started. In any case it was the US who didn't want to enter this foreign war and not "get involved at the beginning."
And it was the Soviet's at least as much as the US who "saves" the day.

It's nice to see people thinking critically about Tolkien's works, but first and foremost they are works of fiction. And you have to get your facts about history right.

[David93]

I dont think so, i think books become analysed to much, they either have a meaning (animal farm) or they are just a story.

1. Middlearth is Europe.

possible, but imo it would be based on a medieval europe at best, personaly its just a map made for toilkens purposes, like alagesia.

2. War for Middlearth is WWII.

i know theres a quote somewhere saying that if the loss and horror of lotr was any war toilken said it was ww1, were he lost his friends.

4. Rohan is Poland (attacked as the first one, fancy horses).

fancy horses? whoo, rohan is based on sythians and vikings

5. Mordor is USSR (massive armies but poor quality, is in the east).

yeah def on the wrong side, since russia did the most fighting in the war, a massive amount of the casulties were on the eastren front. Without russia, britian might have lost.

6. Gondor is USA (saves whole of Middlearth, wants to use the one ring).

ok so gondor doesnt save anything? rohan rides to the rescue? plus the USA didnt really "Save" the world either, but lets not get into

7. One ring is the atom bomb.

no, toilken needed a way to link the hobbit and lotr, the ring was the way, a new version of the hobbit was released, were goloum and the ring took a darker purpose.

8. Ents and elves are the western Europe (they dont want to get involved at the beggining).

what?? britian and france were the first to declare war after the invasion of poland. Along with canada and aussies.
you might remember usa didnt want to get involved.
you forgot britian in the analogy, since toilken was british its awful hard to think he would leave them out you dont think?

I still dont understand the meaning of Frodo and Sam gay relationship though. What do you think?

[thespaniard]

gondor would definitly be Brits and France as they took the biggest beating in the books I dont really see USA in LOTR but i dont see anything in WW1 or WW2 relating to LOTR

[kraxmause]

5. Mordor is USSR (massive armies but poor quality, is in the east).

Don't you think the Easterlings would fit better? Only that their armies weren't of poor quality...

@thespaniard The USSR had about 20 times more casualties than UK and France combined (admittedly, they had a much bigger population to massacre)

[thespaniard]

Don't you think the Easterlings would fit better? Only that their armies weren't of poor quality...

@thespaniard The USSR had about 20 times more casualties than UK and France combined (admittedly, they had a much bigger population to massacre)

they also shoved their troops into the trenches with maybe a clip of ammo and told to charge or be shot for cowardice

[David93]

Don't you think the Easterlings would fit better? Only that their armies weren't of poor quality...

@thespaniard The USSR had about 20 times more casualties than UK and France combined (admittedly, they had a much bigger population to massacre)

they also shoved their troops into the trenches with maybe a clip of ammo and told to charge or be shot for cowardice

I find when arguing for Russia as a major player in the war, it always bad to say they died more. A better point to remember, is that most of the German casualties were also on the Russian front, that after endless conquest Russia held the line, for 900 days at leningrad. I like to think if hitler had put troops in britian, we would have held like that. That russia not only stopped the advance, but started pushing back before d day even took place.

I dont think toilken based lotr of WW2 at all, now star wars...

[muller227]

I find when arguing for Russia as a major player in the war, it always bad to say they died more. A better point to remember, is that most of the German casualties were also on the Russian front, that after endless conquest Russia held the line, for 900 days at leningrad. I like to think if hitler had put troops in britian, we would have held like that. That russia not only stopped the advance, but started pushing back before d day even took place.

I dont think toilken based lotr of WW2 at all, now star wars...

I think this right, not in the least because of a rather cynical forword by Tolkien himself about how the good side would have acted. Also keeping in mind the total and absolute disgust with which he viewed the airwar over Germany.

WW1 creeps in as it must the Dead Marshes being the most obvious. Historically I think it would owe more to the Stand of Austria and Hungary angainst the forces of the Ottomans, though that would not be totally accurate either.

[joshko]

Not at all. At most LOTR could be a statement against mass industrialization, but such a system was well established by the time Tolken wrote his books.

[Nemesis_GR]

Actually i dont think it is ww1-2.Tolkien is influensed by many historical events.The most accurate comparison imo would be this:

1.Gondor is the eastern roman empire.Osgiliath is Constantinople,Minas tirith is adrianople.Generally so many similarities with the romans.

2.So Arnor is the fallen western roman empire.

3.Mordor is the ottoman empire.

4.Isenguard is indeed the nazi Germany.Also symbolising the industrial revolution and the technological rise.

5.Ents on the contrary symbolise the power of nature.

6.Harad is egypt.Umbar being alexandria former part of the empire etc.

7.Rhun is a mix of mongols and persians.

The rest are a mix of things.But i ll give it a shot:

8.Dwarves are jews.

9.Rohan is russia/vikings.

10.Elves are england.Excellent archers etc.Grey havens is a port in england.So valinor is usa.

11.Not sure about dale.Could be armenia or something.

[Ultra123]

....sounds orcy to me.....

Privet!

[muller227]

The relationship thing, is probably only a bit baffling to us today. In Tolkien's mind nothing could be further away. He himself fell madly in love with Edith at the age of what 14, and the moment literally he turned 18 proposed. From CRRT we learn that after her death virtually all energy left him. So I really doubt there is anything there.

I think it probably better to look at the odd relationships born in war between a British Batman and his officer. Tolkien never felt himself a good soldier, and commented more than once, that the corporal's who served British officer's seemed much better at it, smarter, braver just all inall more together. Tolkien always felt himself a poor soldier, this is usually the mark of a soldier who is actually pretty good a at it.

I think watching the CBS Sal Giunta interview might give you a take.

[Luke Evans]

LOL gondor is america... and they defeat everybody... like world war 2? no, just nope. you are misguided

[Luke Evans]

also western europe didnt want to get involved lol it was america who didnt want to get involved at first it was only until u boats were at there coast is when they started to actually give a rats a-ss