Queries, Oddities or Glitches?

[ur-Lord Tedric]

I had a few questions that were contained in the big post in Q,S & D – but I think they got lost. I now have a few more as well as my first 1-turn Roman Campaign has got to the Imperial Reforms and I’ve seen some of the later units. Hopefully some can shed some light and there may be even a couple to address before the patch ships – if that’s desirable?

In my first attempt I started with a 0-turn Roman, but couldn’t survive the Roman Rebel stack spam; so:

1. Some 20, or so, years after the first rebellion is quashed I kept getting a Rebel spawn: either General Sextus and his full stack of 1823 men appearing West of Capua near the Latium border almost every turn thereafter; or, on the odd turn he didn’t appear, then General Vopacius (sp)and his 3/4tr stack of 1535 men appeared just West of Capua itself. When the moon was full I may even have gotten a turn of rest, but it wasn’t often. Is this right, or was there a glitch? Or was I just very unlucky? I simply couldn’t take continuously fighting the same battle over and over again. It tied down 30-odd units forever, whilst they did get well trained!

2. On scale: I was curious about the Team’s intent. Was a sense of scale the idea? Or was one cohort (or equivalent) meant to equal 1 cohort?

3. The ‘Praetorian Legion’: such a thing never actually existed, although during the actual Empire 9, and subsequently 10, cohorts were based in/near Rome, which is the equivalent. But what is the idea of the Praetorian First Cohort, for that certainly never existed?

4. Archer units: (with reference to Rome, but a trawl finds also Spartan Archers I believe). Nearly all the skirmisher units have a Standard size of 40 (+officers) (80 for me on Large), which, like Cavalry at 30, I assume is done for better balance and size (similar to vanilla), rather than all units be the same size (either 50 or 60 – the larger for warbands, phalanx-style units or first cohorts). Why then are the post-Marian/Curia Hostilia Sagitarrii only 30? Is that an error? Particularly when the Corsico-Sardinian infantry archers are 60 – that does seem rather an imbalance. Why would any Roman use anything else (unless they get taken away!)?

[Ferdiad]

1. Script bug.
2. Im no team member but i doubt it.
3.Gameplay I assume.
4.Blance, Rome has smexy Inf and meh Cav. They need meh Archers too to counter it out, and IIRC thyre heavily armoured for archers.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

4.Blance, Rome has smexy Inf and meh Cav. They need meh Archers too to counter it out, and IIRC thyre heavily armoured for archers.

Thanks - I would also have thought it a balance issue, except for those 'extremely powerful' Corsico-Sardinian super archer infantry. Those are just crazy!. The Romans get those.

[Ferdiad]

Limited AOR.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Limited AOR.

Yes, but then so are the later legions. Just Corsica can supply all the units you would ever want. My concern is that they are certainly a 'super-troop' and I'm rather surprised they're in. They do seem wholly disproportionate and, to my mind, unbalanced. If they were only 40 strong they'd still beat almost all other archers hands down. Certainly with some of them with my legions I'll never be worried about any of the horse archer nations.

From history I'm well aware of the Cretan and Eastern archers, celebrated as much as the Balearic & Rhodian slingers. But these guys I've never come across and those islands weren't known for providing any archer units to the Romans afaik.

This is, all, really to do with the balance issue and a bit of a wonder about the Imperial Auxiliary units - which don't seem, at first glance, to be worth building the Curia Hostilia for, nor ever using indeed. That seems odd and I'd relish some understanding. Corsican warband skirmishers and Campanian cavalry are all the help the legions could ever want.

If I'd seen the 60-strong Corsican and 30-strong Sagittarii in testing I would reported it a mistake at first...

[landkarte]

3. The ‘Praetorian Legion’: such a thing never actually existed, although during the actual Empire 9, and subsequently 10, cohorts were based in/near Rome, which is the equivalent. But what is the idea of the Praetorian First Cohort, for that certainly never existed?

Truly the praetorian "legion" didn't existed and it was first 9 chorts but actually that was an equivalent of two legions. That's because preatorian cohorts were about 1,000 men, twice that of ordinary cohort count, later raised even to 1,500. So if you're aiming for historical accuracy just raise 18 ordinary cohorts and no first cohort, I do so.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Truly the praetorian "legion" didn't existed and it was first 9 chorts but actually that was an equivalent of two legions. That's because preatorian cohorts were about 1,000 men, twice that of ordinary cohort count, later raised even to 1,500. So if you're aiming for historical accuracy just raise 18 ordinary cohorts and no first cohort, I do so.

To the best of my knowledge, for the entire early empire, apart from a brief period under Vitellius in 68-69AD when he raised their numbers to the same strengths as legionary first cohorts (possibly by actually raising his army's actual first cohorts to be 'praetorians'), known as 'milliarian' but commonly accepted to actually be 800 infantry - the praetorian cohorts were similarly organised to the standard 'quingenarian' size of 6 centuriae of 80 men each. However, each cohort does seem to have had 3 turmae of cavalry attached taking their strength to nearer 600.

It wasn't until the 3rd Century that it seems the size of the guard cohorts in Rome increased to 1,000 and maybe even up to 1,500.

It's at the siege of Numantia that the first proper Praetorian Cohort was raised, by Scipio Aemilianus (iirc/sp), and by the later republic most generals had them - guarding them in camp and replacing the extraordinarii of the consular army period.

I'm therefore more thinking that each of my commanding generals may have 1, or 2.......

[Drunkboyno1]

Going back to the spammed General Sextus issue, just beat him and expected to bribe the remnants to join me., when I see the stack is exactly as it was. How long does this last for or, as per Ferdiad, how do I change the script to get rid?

Thanks

[dvk901]

Going back to the spammed General Sextus issue, just beat him and expected to bribe the remnants to join me., when I see the stack is exactly as it was. How long does this last for or, as per Ferdiad, how do I change the script to get rid?

Thanks

The issue will be fixed in the next Patch. As Ferdiad said, it was a script error.

[kanzy]

I have the same issue with General Sextus but then I have a lot of issues with the 2nd Roman rebellion never ending cycle, it may be due to the fact that I didn't regularly turn on the scripts when I started the campaign and I never even had 1 1st Roman rebellion at all as I was new to the mod and didn’t understand the concept of scripts at all.

[moredrowsy]

@dvk901 is there a quick fix for the script error for those who have spent quite some time already playing the 2.5 version?

[dvk901]

Yes there is, add the line below that has all the arrows pointing at it:

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;;;3. CAPUA REBELLION
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

declare_counter capua_army
declare_counter capua_rebellion1
declare_counter capua_rebellion2
declare_counter capua_rebellion3
declare_counter capua_rebellion4
declare_counter capua_rebellion5
declare_counter capua_rebellion6

monitor_event CharacterTurnEnd Trait Capua_Rebellion > 0
and FactionLeaderTrait Capua_Rebellion < 7

set_counter capua_army 1
if RandomPercent < 50
set_counter capua_army 2
end_if

if I_CompareCounter capua_army = 1
spawn_army
faction thrace
character Valerius Minius_Novellus, general, age 24, x 167, y 126
unit campanian cavalry, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit campanian cavalry, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied equites, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit allied republic legion, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied republic legion, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied republic legion, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied republic legion, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit samnite pedites extraordinarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit samnite pedites extraordinarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit samnite pedites extraordinarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit lucani pedites extraordinarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit lucani pedites extraordinarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit lucani pedites extraordinarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit allied triarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied triarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied triarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied velite, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit allied velite, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit greek slinger, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit greek slinger, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
end
;console_command give_trait "Valerius Minius_Novellus" Spawned_Roman_Rebels_Premarian_General 1
;console_command give_trait "Valerius Minius_Novellus" Self_Destruct 1
;console_command give_trait "Valerius Minius_Novellus" GoodCommander1 3
;console_command give_trait "Valerius Minius_Novellus" TurnsAlive 1
;console_command give_trait "Valerius Minius_Novellus" CharacterAges 1
end_if

if I_CompareCounter capua_army = 2
spawn_army
faction thrace
character Gabinius Postumius_Flaccus, general, age 29, x 169, y 126
unit campanian cavalry, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied equites, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied equites, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit allied republic legion, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied republic legion, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied republic legion, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied republic legion, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit samnite pedites extraordinarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit samnite pedites extraordinarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit samnite pedites extraordinarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit lucani pedites extraordinarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit lucani pedites extraordinarii, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit allied triarii, exp 3 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied triarii, exp 3 armour 1 weapon_lvl 2
unit allied velite, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit greek slinger, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
unit greek slinger, exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 1
end
;console_command give_trait "Gabinius Postumius_Flaccus" Spawned_Roman_Rebels_Premarian_General 2
;console_command give_trait "Gabinius Postumius_Flaccus" Self_Destruct 1
;console_command give_trait "Gabinius Postumius_Flaccus" GoodCommander1 3
;console_command give_trait "Gabinius Postumius_Flaccus" TurnsAlive 1
;console_command give_trait "Gabinius Postumius_Flaccus" CharacterAges 1
set_counter capua_army 0 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
end_if

Excluding the arrows, of course. This sets the counter to '0' and the armies can't spawn again.

[Drunkboyno1]

DVK901,

You are a Legd and the mod is great fun. I however am a numpty, thanks for the info above, which file?
(Told you I was a numpty!)

Thanks again!

[moredrowsy]

Ah, thanks!

[Anthropoid]

Got a question for you guys: the basic "army" layout in the game, why is it so small? With only a few courses and a few more books on ancient history under my belt I'm certainly no expert, but the numbers I always hear about for major Republican and Imperial period battles were tens of thousands not tens of hundreds.

What is with the 1500 to 2000 man "armies" in the game? Are we meant to assemble 10 or 15 of those to simulate the Battle of Zama?

I'm guessing it is just simply a matter of scale? CA for whatever reason wanted graphics and maps that allowed for each individual soldier to be represented and that constraint shaped everything upwards in the design pyramid?

Not that it is a big deal, but I'm just curious. For a game, even the vanilla, that obviously went to considerable pains to stick with history it just seems weird that all the force sizes are divided by a factor of 10 or 20.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

....
Not that it is a big deal, but I'm just curious. For a game, even the vanilla, that obviously went to considerable pains to stick with history it just seems weird that all the force sizes are divided by a factor of 10 or 20.

For me, who started off, lo' those many moons ago. with figure-gaming, I've always accepted that it's a function of 'scale' - just as a unit in RTW/RSII is the 'same' unit whether it's 25/50/100/200 'sprites' dependant on which setting you are using.

The 'Perfect' scale would probably be (and the breakdown details are at the beginning of that long AAR/Test thread) that a 'full stack' equals a full consular army of the Early Republic - ie 2 Roman and 2 Allied legions complete. Simply because it is an 'army' and can be used as such. The RSII starting position for the Romans is just about right - 2 full stacks equivalent (one facing Hannibal), plus a few extras. So, one full stack represents something like ~20,000 men (actually 16,800 inf and 2,400 Cav + a few others) - scale about 1:10-12.

Later in the campaign, those lovely named and numbered legions seem to encourage halving that scale - so a full stack resembles a legion + auxiliary complement - scale about 1:5-6.

It's simply a matter of scale......

[Primo]

Well, Roman Legions nearly have their accurate size, just a bit less.

It's a problem about the engine. The max number of units in an army is 20, the max number of men per unit is 240 + 3 officers.

More just isn't possible without modifying the engine, which is illegal and thus no option.

[Ferdiad]

export_descr_unitt

[moredrowsy]

Isn't it /play_rome/data/scripts/show_me/background_script.txt?

That's the only file that came up on search with dvk901's script codes.

[Ferdiad]

My bad, I thought we were talking about modifying units for some reason.