Balancing the evil ORC FACTIONS (a compilation of suggestions)

[dfool06]

First of all I will not take full credit for some of the ideas going to be presented here. As some of them are actually from other threads suggested by other members, particularly from Poosticks7's thread. I simply just want to present this as a compilation of good ideas, which in my humble opinion KK and the DEv Team should really looked into.

To those who find or feel like that their ideas where copied or stolen I will now apologize. It is not my intention to, like you guys I simply just want to help make the game better. So please just trust me on this one and read on. As I strongly believe that this thread should be presented in this manner.

As the title suggests this will be all about the overall game balance of all the evil ORC factions in TATW mod, namely Isengard, Mordor, Orcs of the Misty Mountains and Orcs of Gundabad. How must they differ from one another, what strengths and weaknesses should they have, what units should their armies be compose of(unit roosters) and lastly make sure that they adhere with Master Tolkien's lore. Now on with this thread.

I humbly suggest the following;

ISENGARD

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As described in the game
Strength: Fields heavily armored Uruk-hai units and terrifying wargs.
Weakness: Lacks reliable cavalry

ARMY COMPOSITION
Lesser orcs: 5% (Snagas)
Uruk-hai: 75%
Evil men: 15% (Dunlendings and Orthanc Guards)
Wargs: 5%

Quick note: the percentages going to be used here are only very very rough estimates for presentation purposes only and there are no actual computations/math really involve. They are simply tools to simplified things so that it will be easier to see the overall army composition of a faction(as I would like to suggest them to be). And they are based according to race on the faction's unit rooster.

The army composition of Isengard is almost well balance IMHO as the main bulk of its military power are really the different Uruk-hai infantry(on foot including archers) regiments being only supplemented by a few AoR human units(the Dunlending Vets is a nice addition btw). The infantry rooster is fine but its cavalry is somewhat still lacking, so may I propose that these new units be added.

1.WARG PACKS (riderless wargs)
-it is well known that the Wizard Saruman is a master of speech craft. He has managed to dominate from long distances the wills of many evil men and even the mighty king of Rohan Theoden to his service once. With a palantir in his disposal Saruman can easily scour vast lands in search for human and beasts that he can "persuaded" to his cause. The crebain (crows) from dunland is a good example. These wargs are once wild creatures living in the wilderness that have been snared by Saruman's powers and calls them to Isengard to be breed into a more "favorable quality" or to do his bidding out right.

-requires level 1 stable and a high culture value from a settlement. May scare enemies. Riderless, so they may have faster movement but less attack. May run amok. Their role would be like wardogs, but in modding terms I guess they will be modified cavalry unit minus the riders. Just like what they did with the new spiders in v3.1.

2. Giant Armored Wargs
- In the Two Towers book The Battle of the Hornburg, Isengard's armies contains not only normal orcs, evil men (dunlendings) and uruk-hais but also Half-orcs and goblinmen as well. To me this only proves one thing, that Saruman is experimenting on creating different varieties of hybrids. He may have favored the qualities that the Uruk-hai breed has and decided to mass produce them to be the main bulk of his armies. During the process of mass breeding every now and then spawn a much stronger finer specimen of Uruk-hai and these became the Berserkers.

IMHO similar thing may have happened in the process of breeding wargs. Every now and then a much stronger and bigger specimen may have been spawned and became the giant armored wargs of Isengard. Or in another case maybe these huge wargs were the alpha pack leaders of wild wargs grouped together to form a heavy elite cavalry force for Isengard.

-This unit should have a powerful charge, scares enemies, infinite morale and should have 2 hit points at least. Due to their size they can be fitted with their own armor and can be ridden by Uruk-hai armed with their traditional scimitars. For balance reasons they would require the highest level stable, very high culture requirement, very expensive and slow to recruit and unit number must be only like 20-30ish.

-Saruman has managed to equipped 10,000 uruk-hai with steel/metal weapons and heavy armor, this only means the forges of Isengard are operating at an advanced level (well in orc standards of course).

-Saruman's skills in breeding+ Huge Wargs+ Uruk-hais+ advanced forges= Giant armored wargs cavalry, any good commander in his right mind would have figured that logic easily.

Quick note: I will explain latter as to why Isengard should have 3 types of warg units. I want to present the new unit suggestions first.
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MORDOR

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As described in the game
Strength: Fields masses of orcs and powerful Trolls
Weakness: Lacks cavalry

ARMY COMPOSITION
Lesser orcs: 65% (orcs that are not uruks)
Uruks: 20%
Trolls: 10% (including Olog-hai)
Evil men: 5% (Black Numenoreans and others)

Mordor IMHO has a nice set of Archer units and a well organized infantry rooster as each unit type has a low level and a high level version.

Spearmen: Orc band< Morannon Guards
Swordmen: Orc Raiders< Uruks
Halberds: Orc Maulers< Uruk Halberds

It also has initial access to the new Spiders in Mirkwood. And lastly the awesome Olog-hai Trolls of course. Overall I think Mordor is a well balanced and well crafted faction already and by adding these new units which I would like to suggest will just be gravy. But they are somehow mentioned in the books so they must be added IMHO.

1. Drummer trolls
- "Drums, drums in the deep" is what Balin's expeditionary force heard in Moria and latter by the Fellowship of the Ring. It is clear proof that orcs used drums as maybe a form of long distance communication and that they have enough intelligence (or trained) to understand/decipher "coded" messages or commands from simple beats of drums. Now it is not clear if the goblins of Moria used Trolls as drummers but for Mordor I m pretty sure it is the case. Mordor fields hundreds of thousands of orcs and like in any large army communication and the transmission of commands will be challenging. Trolls are very strong, strong enough to carry huge wardrums, they are also high enough to tower over the sea of numerous orcs. Meaning the sound from their drums will be unhindered and can be heard over long
distances.

-Armed with clubs and they should also be able to inspire nearby troops or increase combat effectiveness. To be recruited from level 2 troll cages.

- In Poosticks7's thread LL mentioned that he is planning to make these for OotMm. Oh please make it so it would really be awesome. They should also be given to Mordor.

Now what Mordor still lacks as a faction is access to more AoR units.

1. Pit Guards
- It is mentioned in The Hobbit book when Gandalf secretely entered it (twice) that it has a vast laberinth of dungeons. The Pit guards are the wardens/jailors and tormentors of such dungeons. After Sauron was defeated by the last Alliance of Elves and Men in the last days of the Second age he went into hiding as the Necromancer of Dol-Guldor for over 1200 years more or less. So basically Dol-Guldor is more like a second Barad-dur or home for Sauron, meaning Dol-Guldor is one of the major strongholds/fortresses of Mordor that it should have the facilities needed to spawn a unique breed of orcs. And it deserves some kind of AoR unit.

- Due to its isolated location, meaning very far away from Mordor and surrounded by the boarders of the Silvan elves,Dwarves and Dale, Dol-Guldor would have created/organized out of necessity a special elite division of soldiers (The Pit Guards) that are very unique from other regions.

- It is said from the books that Dol-Guldor have been attacked by the forces of the White Council (twice? not sure) at Gandalf's advice and yet it stood and remained operational up until the last days of the Third Age. IMHO for such a fortress to survive that very long from such conditions (isolated and very near to the front lines) is proof enough that the defenders within its walls are made of tough stuffs.

-These units can only be recruited from Dol-Guldor level 2 barracks (the Dev team can still decide which tier this unit will belong to this is just a suggestion). Armed with maces or polearms and shields. Very high morale and stamina. Can form shield wall.

2. Mordor Hill Trolls/Gorgoroth Hill Trolls
-Hill trolls are mentioned twice in the books. First Hill Trolls captured and killed Aragorn's Grandfather in the region of Eriador called Trollshaws (which expalins how it got its name from the trolls that lived there) or in the Ettenmoors not sure of the exact location. Second at the battle of the Morannon, Hill trolls armed with huge black round bucklers and hammers assaulted the armies of the West. Pippin killed one of their chiefs when he tried to save his friend Beregond.

-Throughout Master Tolkien's books he used words like "cave", "mountain", "snow" and "hill" to describe trolls. IMHO his only purpose of doing so is to really depict that there ARE different types of Trolls living in Middle Earth. He could have used the words like "cave" or "mountain" or any other word in the situations mentioned above but no he didn't. He specifically wrote "hill".

-My lore is a bit rusty so anyone can correct me if I m wrong. Cave trolls are only mentioned once when the Fellowship pass through Moria. Mountain trolls once during the Siege of Minas Tirith as they bare Grond the mighty hammer of Morgoth. Snow trolls also once in the appendices when it was used to described Helm Hammerhand. And all of the above trolls the Dev team accepted and put into the game. Now Hill trolls are mentioned twice and yet they have been left out.

-Hill troll units should be added into the factions Mordor and Orcs of Gundabad IMHO. Based from the situations they have been mentioned in the books.

-The current Olog-hai in the game may have been breed from mountain trolls while these olog-hai maybe from hill trolls suggesting that they are lesser forms of Olog-hai. Current Olog-hai in the game = like Berserkers and Hill troll Olog-hai = like normal Uruk-hai. The Hill trolls that the Orcs of Gundabad should have are natural Hill trolls not olog-hai.

-As described in the book Return of the King, Gorgoroth Hill trolls/Olog-hai will be armed with huge hammers, black round bucklers and some type of crude primitive scale or plate mail. They can scare enemies and may have an ability like "roar" that lessens enemy morale. Can only be recruited at Barad-Dur level 3 troll cages. Requires at least 90-100% culture, very expensive and slow to recruit. Does armor piercing damage and have at least 2 or more hitpoints. IMHO what would differentiate this unit from the giant Olog-hai is unit numbers, Big olog-hai only has 12, this unit may have like 20-40ish (?). May charge without orders.

3. Dismounted Black Numenoreans
-mounted Black Numenoreans are already present in the game as the 9 Nazgul's bodyguards. IMHO the land of Mordor can only support a limited number of horses not like lands such as Rohan and other lush regions of ME, that there are more Black Numenoreans than mounts they can ride in Mordor. In battle horses can be killed as well. These are the Black Numenoreans that don't have any horses to ride in the first place and or had their mounts already killed but still wish to join the fight on foot.

-AoR unit from Minas Morgul only. Armed with two handed swords. Can Scare enemies. Very high stamina. Will not rout. Cannot be recruited until the last barracks event from the highest level barracks. Requires at least 90-100% culture.

Quick note: Notice that all the new AoR units I m suggesting are from places that are significant to Mordor.

Now some of you might say that these AoR units are OP. IMHO they aren't as they are already limited by the AoR system plus I'll leave it to the Dev team to balance them out. And they still abide with the general strength and weakness of the faction. Mordor still lacks cavalry and at least each race composing Mordor's armies only got 1 additional representative. They are still just suggestions.
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Orcs of the Misty mountains (OotMm)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As described in the game
Strength: Fields good heavy infantry and powerful cave trolls
Weakness: Lacks cavalry and spear men

ARMY COMPOSITION
Lesser orcs: 20% (snagas and none goblins)
Goblins: 70% (goblins big or small)
Trolls: 5% (cave trolls)
Other evil things: 5% (wild beasts, wargs and Balrog/s?)

Despite what other Tolkien scholars say, personally I think that Goblins are an entire subclass or sub species of orcs that are more slender, more compact in physique ,more agile but of equal in cunning and ferocity to other orcs that preffers dwelling inside caves or underground caverns.

IMHO Goblins should really comprise the main bulk of OotMm's armies as it would differentiate the faction from Isengard and Mordor. Currently the OotMm factions is a bit boring and lacks uniqueness from other factions especially from Orcs of Gundabad.

May I humbly suggest that this faction's unit rooster be "redeveloped" and it should be like this;

ARCHER UNITS
1. Snaga Archers (R1)
2. Goblin Archers (R2)
3. Heavy Goblin Archers (R3)

Quick note: To me OotMm's set of archer units are fine. R= ranges, B= barracks, S= stables, C= cages and the numbers

= the level of the buildings. New units will be highlighted in green font.

INFANTRY UNITS
1. Snaga skirmishers- javelins and sword (B1)
2. Goblin infantry- sword and shield (B2)
3. Goblin Halberd- 2 handed halberd (B3)
4. Heavy Goblin infantry- sword and shield (B4)
5. Goblin Taskmasters- javelins and pole arm (B4 AoR Misty mountain regions)

-cruel taskmasters or overseers of Great Goblin lords. They act as lieutenants and captains over the countless goblins hordes.

-may inspire other goblin troops nearby or increase their combat effectiveness. May charge without orders. Armor piercing damage.

6. Great Goblins- dual/twin axes (B4 AoR Moria)

-Master Tolkien indeed used the word "great" to describe something huge and powerful these goblins are just that. Bigger and far stronger than the average goblins these form the very elite guards or crack shock troops of Goblin lords. Armed with an axe at each hand it is their way to display their immense strength and advance skill to wield such weapons.

-May scare enemies. May charge without orders. Armor piercing damage. Very high morale and stamina.

TROLLS AND MONSTERS
1. Cave troll- massive hammer (C1)
2. Drummer troll- war drums and clubs (C2)

-about the same as the Mordor drummer troll, please just see it above in the Mordor section.

3. Balrogs (custom battles?) It is still part of the unit rooster.

CAVALRY
1. Warg riders- sword (S1)

Quick note: IMHO OotMm faction should not get more wargs or cavalry units. I will explain it later just like what I have said in the Isengard section.

This faction should also have Exclusive Mercs not AoR regular units but Mercs exclusive only to this faction like that of Ents and Beornings for the Elven factions.

EXCLUSICE MERCS
1. Mountain Orcs- spear and shield (Merc- Misty mountain regions)

- These are none goblin orcs that dwell on the surface instead of underground. Warndering bands that are partly responsible for attacking weary travelers passing through the Mm. They are simply low to medium level units that has 251 unit number and bonus against cavalry. They would be the only spear and shield unit for this faction.

- IMHo OotMm should have a little bit of similarity with the Dwarves in some way. The Dwarves totally lack a cavalry unit in their regular unit rooster and only rely on mercs such as Dale cavalry or Rhovanion riders to supplement their armies. OotMm should be just that. Notice that the new regular units being suggested adhere still to the general strength and weakness of the faction, all heavy infantry and drummer troll. They simply provided more option for the player. I personally call the Dale cavalry mercs as "key stone" units as while they are not available from the regular unit rooster they are a neccesity within the Dwarven faction. Mountain orcs are just that for OotMm faction as its regular unit rooster is missing any anti cavalry spearmen unit.

Now some might say they still got the goblin halberds as anti cavaltry unit, but IMHO they are just a soft counter for cavalry. Come on, Halberd units are slow against cavalry. OotMm's initial enemies would be the High Elves and Silvan Elves and maybe Rohan and Dale later on. A spear and shield unit provides at least more flexibility than halberd units IMHO.

2. Mountain Giants- huge clubs or none (Merc - Misty mountain regions)

-In The Hobbit book they are mentioned when Thorin's company pass through the Misty mountains and a storm suddenly appeared and these Giants got excited and play their favorite game, throwing huge boulders. Later Gandalf said that he will have to find a much more "decent" giant to cover the holes and cave entrances they have found in the Mm. This inidcates that the race of Mountain giants living in ME are nuetral neither good nor evil and that they are sentient as well, as they can be reasoned with or else why would Gandalf would say he has to ask a more "decent" giant in the first place.

Now I think some of these mountain giants may have been presuaded indeed to join the Goblin armies. Either by tribute of gold or deceit or any other reasons.

- In modding terms the dev team can maybe use the Balrog model, remove the wings, horns and add more detail or texture to make it look like a mountain giant? I m no modder so I m just imagining as to how it can be possible to add this unit into the game.

- They would be very very expensive. Unit number maybe the same as the Balrog perhaps? And the Stats of course would be high (attack,defense and hitpoints ect.)
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ORCS OF GUNDABAD (OoG)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As described in the game
Strength: Relies on various types of light and heavy infantry
Weakness: Lacks cavalry.

ARMY COMPOSITION
Orcs: 40% (including lesser orcs and goblins)
Evil men: 35% (wild hillmen and men of Rhudaur)
Trolls: 15% (all types of trolls)
Other evil things: 10% (evil spirits, wargs and wolves)

IMHO the armies of this faction should be composed of a well balance mixture of different evil races such as orcs, men, trolls and others. After the fall of the Realm of Angmar there has not been anyone strong enough to act as a unifying force to muster and organize under one banner the evil races from the Northwestern regions of ME. In the books there was no mention of an attempt by Sauron or any major evil character to rebuild or to establish a new evil realm in those regions either. IMHO the Orcs of Gundabad faction should be more like a league of different evil races than a unified nation or realm, that was put together in the last minute.

May I humbly suggest that this faction's unit rooster be "redeveloped" and it should be like this;

ARCHER UNITS
1. Snaga Archers (R1)
2. Goblin Trackers (R2)

INFANTRY UNITS
1. Snaga Stalkers- axe and shield (B1)
2. Goblin band- spear and sheild (B1)
3. Hillmen- Spear and sheid (B2)

- aside from being a mercenary unit available to all Dark factions, make this unit a regular unit for OoG as well.

- they are the wild men of the north who's wills were swayed to evil by gold, some misguided sense of honoring old allegiances, deciet, by force or out of fear.

4. Orc Fellers- 2 handed axes (B3)
5. Rhudaur Axemen- javelins, axe and sheild (B3 AoR Rhudaur)

- like the hillmen this unit can be available as mercenary unit for all evil factions and be regular units for OoG as well.

- they are the descendants of the men on Rhudaur that served under Angmar long ago. They also represent the much cultured/civilized evil men of the North.

- Armor piercing damage. Combat bonus in woods and snow. May charge without orders.

6. Orc Halberdiers- halberds (B4)
7. Orc Mauraders- axe and sheild (B4)

TROLLS
1. Mountain trolls- maces (C1)
2. Cave trolls- massive hammers (C2)
3. Hill trolls- 2 handed warhammer or battle axe (C2)

- Unlike the hill trolls (olog-hai) that was suggested for Mordor these hill trolls are wild or natural trolls. Thus they should appear different from the later. AoR unit from Carn-Dum and Trollshaws. Armor piercing damage. May charge without orders. Warcry that would inspire and increase combat effectiveness of nearby troops. Unit number would be 20-30ish only.

4. Snow trolls- picks? (C3)

CAVALRY
1. Warg riders- swords (S1)
2. Riderless dire or snow wolves (S2)

- they should use those models from the mod "myths of the fallen lords".

- riderless wolves of the north, their main strength IMHO should be in numbers (around 80 perhaps?). Should be much faster than Warg riders but have less attack and defense.

EXCLUSIVE MERCS
1. Barrow Wights- dagger or short sword (Mercenary Cardolan Barrow Downs)

- evil spirits or lesser wraiths that haunted the Barrow Downs of Cardolan. One of them captured Frodo and company when they passed the Barrow Downs. Meaning they still exists during the Third age. They can be hired or drawn to do evil by the leaders of the Orcs of Gundabad.

- They are Armed with dagger or short sword as mentioned in the book The Fellowship of the Ring, the Barrow Wight that captured Frodo held a dagger and is preparing Frodo for sacrifice. Can scare enemies. May charge without orders. Should have at least 2 hitpoints. Combat bonus in woods and snow. Will not rout. Very excellent stamina.

- In modding terms I guess the Dev team can use the Dismounted Nazgul models and armed them with dagger/short sword instead of long ones and then just change their color and texture a little into blue and make them transparent and ghostly looking like what they did with the Oathbreakers models. Oathbreakers are the undead good guys and they are green, IMHO Barrow wights should be blue and they are the evil counter part of the Oathbreakers.

2. Rhudaur Horsemen- javelins and axe (Merc- Rhudaur and nearby regions)

- slightly superior in terms of weapons and armor with the Rhudaur scout which can still be available to any evil faction as a merc. Rhudaur Horsemen however are exclusive only to the OoG faction. They represent the very few evil men of the North that have means to afford better equipment for themselves but still needs some persuation (gold) to join Sauron's cause. Their horses are either bought, pre-self-own or stolen. Some of them may have Black Numenorean blood in them but only a little since they are already very interminggled with the blood of lesser men.

3. Brigands- Bow and arrows, long sword (Mercenaries- some regions in Northern Eriador)

- The wilderness of Eriador are full of dangerous folk. Travellers must always be weary of Brigands that infests the wilds. They are outlaws and lordless men that pay allegiance only to those who can pay them the highest. Some of them maybe the descendants of the Black Numenoreans that once served the Witchking of Angmar long ago. But they have intermiggled with lesser men and so what ever power or skill they aquire from their heritage have also been diminished over time. They are specialist in ambushes, attacking with their bows from a distance and then with their swords at close quarters.

- Basically its an evil Ranger unit for an evil faction. While they use the same tactics of the Good Rangers they are still far inferior in terms of power and skills. IMHO the wild regions of Eriador are an ideal place for Brigands to roam freely.

- Can use flamming arrows. Long range attack. Can hide in woods and snow. Combat bonus in woods and snow. Good stamina.

Quick Note: Regarding the suggestions of giving the factions OotMm and OoG Black Numenorean units. I will respectfully say nO or disagree with the idea. Because during the Third Age Full blooded Black Numenoreans (BN) can now only be found in Umbar and at the Service of Mordor. The units that I mentioned above are not really full blooded BNs anymore but maybe descendants of the BNs that served Angmar long ago. They only have little left in their blood as they intermiggled with lesser men over time.

But I really believe that there were full blooded Black Numenoreans in Angmar long ago. Here are my reasons;
1. We can all agree that the Witchking is once really a very powerful Black Numenorean soccerer king. And what does a king have? a realm/kingdom and within this realm are his subjects. I don't really believe that the Witchking came to the North and established the Witch Realm of Angmar all by himself. He brought along followers of course, and I m very sure that not all of them are Orcs.

2. After Angmar's capital Carn-Dum was established Rhudaur was the first to fall. In the books it only says that when Rhudaur was conquered all the Dunedain their were slain. IMHO the term "Dunedain" refers to the Faithful. I m sure that before the fall of Rhudaur some of the Dunedain there converted or changed sides.
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REGARDING WARG UNITS

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now I will explain my reasons as to why I would like to suggest that Isengard should have 3 types of Warg units. If we look into the strength of Isengard it says "Fields heavily armored Uruk-hai units and terrifying wargs" but if we look into the unit roosters of both OotMm and OoG, they also have wargs riders. I m not saying that the Dev team should remove the warg units from the latter 2 factions or re-write the faction strength description of Isengard.

But IMHO something must be done to make Isengard standout from the rest interms of having Warg units. Now I m aware that currently the Warg riders of Isengard has more attack stats than the other 2 factions (based from Brandy barrel's unit guide v3.0) and I think the Dev team made the right decision about that. But it is simply not enough IMHO as its suppose to be one of the main feature of Isengard "terrifying WARGS" with an "S". So I strongly believe that by giving Isengard 3 types of warg units can we give the faction of Isengard justice.

Now some of you might say that by giving Isengard 3 types of warg unit it would be contrary or violate its weakness "lacks reliable cavalry". IMHO it will not since all it needs is balancing of unit stats, costs and recruitment time by the dev team. They may run amok and kill their allies as well. They can be very expensive and takes too long to recruit. Have a much slower movement speed than other cavalry units. Now where's the reliability in that? Plus it doesn't say "lacks cavalry" totally like the other evil ORC factions which indicates that Isengard as a faction is allowed to have cavalry type units, just don't make them reliable enough like horses.

Regarding javelin/archer warg riders, IMHO its not very possible and logical lorewise. So I say no to this idea because of the following;
1. Warg's physique and the way it ran doesn't make them ideal platforms for accurately shooting projectiles.
2. Wargs are predators and their instincs are to charge and pounce on thier prey quickly so what is the point of having ranged weapons if your mount can quickly shorten the distance between you and your target.
3. I think training wargs to do a shooting circle or maintain a safe distance from the enemy or do hit and run tactics would be next to impossible. Considering their wild and savage nature. Plus if they are in a battle surrounded by the smell of blood and death and the sounds of the screaming of the dying they will be on a frenzy faster than their rider can master them.

About the warg riders of OotMm and OoG, I m not against them as they really adhere to lore. But that's it they should not get any more warg type units IMHO. As I think Isengard has Saruman to breed a variety of wargs while the other 2 factions may just have captured wild wargs.

CONCLUSION
So overall the differences between the 4 evil orc factions should be like this IMHO;

Isengard= Uruk-hai regiments and the variety of warg units.

Mordor= Orcs, Uruks and Olog-hai variety.

OotMm= Goblins and exclusive special mercs.

OoG= A melting pot of different evil races, men, orcs trolls and other evil things.

A Dol Guldor Pit Guard

Dismounted Black numenoreans. Minus the nazgul

[Generalpatton334]

Seems like a great idea and at least you have lore to back it up

[David93]

I havent got to read your whole post yet, but it looks very intresting and lore correct. These are units from the frogs submod i thought youd like to see.

Dismounted Black Numenorians

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hill trolls

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Black uruks of moria, these came from a reference in the fellowship

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Wargs

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Incredible Bulk]

I havent got to read your whole post yet, but it looks very intresting and lore correct. These are units from the frogs submod i thought youd like to see.

Dismounted Black Numenorians

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hill trolls

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Black uruks of moria, these came from a reference in the fellowship

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Wargs

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I love these

[David93]

still wating for a mod that gives orcs a mounted guard

Frogs adds 2 more units of wargs, increases wargs numbers, puts them in "horde" formation, adds a speed difference depending on armour.
one of the warg units

I love these

thanks, any rep apreciated and dont forget to rep Ozzmosis

[The Mouth]

I would very really like to see some of these units and only three problems that I found in a once over look at it.

1. Pure Black Numenoreans (And Numenoreans in general) had almost completely died out by the third age so these units should be removed or have long replenishment rates (In the recruitment menu that is) I'd say 10-20 turns. I'd much rather have the second option implemented though.

2.Warg packs and dire wolves would be impossible unless the team made new animations (Which I hear is complicated and time consuming)

3. I may be wrong but weren't mountain giants completely neutral?

[Santeri]

2.Warg packs and dire wolves would be impossible unless the team made new animations (Which I hear is complicated and time consuming)

There are dog animations...

[The Mouth]

There are dog animations...

There are? Source/link? The only thing I've ever heard of like that was some people who were making wolves for a submod but I'm not sure what happened to it.

[Hanny]

1. Pure Black Numenoreans (And Numenoreans in general) had almost completely died out by the third age so these units should be removed or have long replenishment rates (In the recruitment menu that is) I'd say 10-20 turns. I'd much rather have the second option implemented though.

Black Numenorians, born in Numenor and turned to worship of Sauron and taken up permenent residence in the East of ME, only one refernced in HOME, and he is the Mouth of Sauron, who has lived so long by socery he has forgotten his own name.

Represented in game by massive numbers of bodyguards.

Numeniorians also founded Arno/Gondor, and they are still around, and represented in game by units of Rangers/Dunedain.

Much better to lose the B Numenorians and replace with eastserling cav for Khamal, Uruks for Nazguls, and trolls for the WK, trolls being over represented also in Mordors armies and instad in a unique unit that re spawn should WK perish.( been trying to get a 4 model fell beast unit for WK but it dont work well enough) Thats wht ive done anyways. Others of course want other stuff in game.

[Ngugi]

dFool06, perhaps you have many good ideas but its just to much text in a row to encourage reading.
Please edit your post > go advanced > and use either spolier-boxes in the menue above (red box with white exclamation mark) or add content-boxes.

The latter looks like this [contentbox.=TITEL] YOUR TEXT [/contentbox] (just don't use the red stop mark).

That way you may create sections of texts and make it more reader appealing and friendly

[dfool06]

dFool06, perhaps you have many good ideas but its just to much text in a row to encourage reading.
Please edit your post > go advanced > and use either spolier-boxes in the menue above (red box with white exclamation mark) or add content-boxes.

The latter looks like this [contentbox.=TITEL] YOUR TEXT [/contentbox] (just don't use the red stop mark).

That way you may create sections of texts and make it more reader appealing and friendly

Sorry about that. OK done.

@David93: I like them all except the Moria uruks since in the lore the Uruks that the Fellowship saw in Moria was said to be from Mordor as Gandalf recognizes them. The BN, hilltrolls and wargs should be in vanilla imho.

I would very really like to see some of these units and only three problems that I found in a once over look at it.

1. Pure Black Numenoreans (And Numenoreans in general) had almost completely died out by the third age so these units should be removed or have long replenishment rates (In the recruitment menu that is) I'd say 10-20 turns. I'd much rather have the second option implemented though.

2.Warg packs and dire wolves would be impossible unless the team made new animations (Which I hear is complicated and time consuming)

3. I may be wrong but weren't mountain giants completely neutral?

In the Third age yes BN populations in most parts of ME have died out. But I m pretty sure that a there are a few families of clans left that maintains a pure blood line in Umbar.

The Dev team manages to put spiders so just remove the riders of the current warg units.

Yes they are neutral, that is why I only suggested them to be Mercenaries. Since not all MG are evil. Gandalf mentioned there are decent ones also. But I think the goblins lived in the MM long enough for them to interact to some MG that may have evil tendencies. Considering their favorite game is throwing huge boulders at mountain sides. So only some not the entire raceof MG will join evil.

[RexImperator]

Personally I don't think Isengard should get any more wolf warg units, whereas the Misty Mountains and Gundabad should get more wolf and warg units.

[DeadlyPhoenix]

I want wolves Q.Q

[David93]

Sorry about that. OK done.

@David93: I like them all except the Moria uruks since in the lore the Uruks that the Fellowship saw in Moria was said to be from Mordor as Gandalf recognizes them. The BN, hilltrolls and wargs should be in vanilla imho.

Ozz origionaly made the trolls and the BN are actually from vanilla 2.1 their hidden in the edu. Wargs were created by he Oog team. The black uruks were created by me, the origional parts from the third age team. They are not actually from moria, the name is slightly misleading, they are the uruks that sauron has sent to moria, either to command or the help (pure speculation) I used parts from both factions mordor and moria. The idea is that, sauron couldnt have anticipated that the fellowship would pass through there at exactly the right time, its possible saruman informed him the fellowship was going through, but unlikely even if dispatched right away Uruks could have reached moria in the timeframe. So that means the uruks would have been there for a while and likely picked up moria equipment and weapons. Leaving a mix between mordor and moria.


In the Third age yes BN populations in most parts of ME have died out. But I m pretty sure that a there are a few families of clans left that maintains a pure blood line in Umbar.

The Dev team manages to put spiders so just remove the riders of the current warg units.

Yes they are neutral, that is why I only suggested them to be Mercenaries. Since not all MG are evil. Gandalf mentioned there are decent ones also. But I think the goblins lived in the MM long enough for them to interact to some MG that may have evil tendencies. Considering their favorite game is throwing huge boulders at mountain sides. So only some not the entire raceof MG will join evil.

[k/t]

What is "Frogs" submod? Forgotten Realms Of...?

[Emperor of Hell]

Forgotten Realms Of Gathered Submods

[Ultra123]

very well explained, i agree with your post, and would love to see these things in game, including black nums on a long recruitment time (fountain guard style)

[Ngugi]

alreadyded uses them a lot in his submod http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=355651

[total war lover]

This is a great idea!

[Khay]

1.WARG PACKS (riderless wargs)

Why not. Not sure it would fit best the Isengard roster, but i like the idea to throw the least powerful wargs at the ennemy in suicide charges.

2. Giant Armored Wargs

Bigger better faster stronger. Meh-ish... Not the best way to develop interesting units.

1. Drummer trolls

Most defenitely, yes, that would help a lot any orc faction with their lousy morale.

1. Pit Guards

Why not. I'd appreciate some more AoR for Mordor related to Barad Dur and Dol Guldur

2. Mordor Hill Trolls/Gorgoroth Hill Trolls

I'm not sure about the lore justification, Tolkien was often condradictory in its own use of terms between books, versions of same work, etc...
Plus i'm not sure the unit would represent trolls properly, particularly the breeds of Mordor. Nor is balanced.

3. Dismounted Black Numenoreans

I can garantee you Mordor can support a more important number of horses than the number of Black Numenorean in its army. If they are as powerful as they are depicted in the game, i can garantee you as well that the logistic to keep them equiped with horses for maximum efficiency on the battlefield exists. Or you could apply your logic to everyone and developp dismounted versions of any mounted unit in game.
I know they do look awesome and badass, but that black numenorean craze need to stop, really... Please, for the sake of interest and flavor, consider implementing an interesting shock orc unit.

5. Goblin Taskmasters- javelins and pole arm (B4 AoR Misty mountain regions)

YES! Absolutely. Because this faction needs diversity, because it looks nice, and because javelin + polearm is a duo of weapon not used in game.

6. Great Goblins- dual/twin axes (B4 AoR Moria)

Looks reasonable, plausible and interesting for the sake of the unit roster.

2. Drummer troll- war drums and clubs (C2)

Yes.

EXCLUSICE MERCS
1. Mountain Orcs- spear and shield (Merc- Misty mountain regions)

Why not, although i'm not sure this would help the goblins much, depending on the availability of this merc unit.

2. Mountain Giants- huge clubs or none (Merc - Misty mountain regions)

I'm not a huge fan of super powerful unit, but then again, why not.

3. Hillmen- Spear and sheid (B2)

Yes. I share too this idea of OoG becoming "All the Evil Stuff of Gundabad"

5. Rhudaur Axemen- javelins, axe and sheild (B3 AoR Rhudaur)

Yes again.

3. Hill trolls- 2 handed warhammer or battle axe (C2)

More interesting than the Mordor version. Though that would be 4 different flovors of troll in this faction, it's starting to be a lot. My previous comment about balance and how their stats represent trolls properly or not still stands.

2. Riderless dire or snow wolves (S2)

Massive YES!

EXCLUSIVE MERCS
1. Barrow Wights- dagger or short sword (Mercenary Cardolan Barrow Downs)

Something scary, with low attack but extremely tough to kill. I do love this idea. However there is already quite a lot of units which can scare enemies in this roster, with all those trolls.

2. Rhudaur Horsemen- javelins and axe (Merc- Rhudaur and nearby regions)

Yes

3. Brigands- Bow and arrows, long sword (Mercenaries- some regions in Northern Eriador)

Yes again, although i wouldn't have called them mere "Brigands". But if some settlements of Rhudaur still exist today, then they may very well have some group of patrollers and trackers to defend them from marauders the same way Rangers protect the hidden settlements of the Dunedain.


Many of your ideas are really interesting, some are debatable, the black numenorean suggestion just suck, but, to your credit, you didn't suggest to implement them in the Gundabad roster, so i will forgive that
+rep