Question about the historical accuracy of the Kingdom of Jerusalem

[Valerius.Aenaes]

I may be wrong, but Godfrey of Bouillon was Duke of Lorraine until he took up the Cross and joined the Crusade against Jerusalem. After Antioch was taken and Bohemond refused to turn it over to the Byzantine Empire, he, Raymond IV and the remainder of the Crusader forces continued south and besieged Jerusalem. They captured the city in mid-1099 I believe it was, but I'm digressing big time.

Would it not be more historically accurate, I guess, if the Crusaders spoke with the German accents rather than French? Lorraine (or Lotharingia) was part of the Holy Roman Empire during this time. He himself was German. Like I said, I may be wrong, but I've read a few books. One recently called the History of the Medieval World by Susan Wise Bauer which got me thinking about this. I play this mod, and I love it. But playing the Kingdom of Jerusalem is always a double-edged sword for me. I like them, but...boy, do I hate the French and their accents.

It's obviously nothing pivotal to gameplay, but I would prefer it - and as I said, it seems as though it would, historically, be more accurate.

Perhaps there's a way to change this? If so, I'd be thankful if anyone could tell me.

[Raveyn Ravensworth]

Perhaps there is, however if i remember it right the French accents might be a reference to most Europeans being called Franks by the Arabian powers at the time, added to the fact that whilst one of the leaders was born in a border land were i assume both languages will probably have been spoken, most of the other crusaders were of French ancestry, thus making em have the French in-game as well.

[Lazy]

The history of this region is... how to say that without insulting anyone...

Some french history books say its a french region... occupied by the germans!
some german ones say its a german region... occupied by the french...

It´s something like the question if Mr. Kopernik ( latin: Kopernicus, engl: dill-"maker" or "cutter" ... that´s quite hard to translate ) was german or polish...
That can be an endless discussion!
Lorraine was indeed german at this very moment... but some time before that it was french... before that it was german... before that it was french... before that blabla!

If you hate french people... play with england and change history
Of course you can change the voices easily!
Make a search inside the Mod Workshop - Total War Center Forums!

[Ferdiad]

I quite like the french accents. German would seem very out of place IMO.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

I love the French accents myself. They make the speeches of crusading generals so much more fun. People are different.

I had the impression that the lingua franca among the knights in the Holy Lands was Old French and not Latin. The region was called Outremer from the old French, while French was the main language of the knights of St John that resulted out of them. Most of their names also sound more French than German - Raynald of Châtillon, Guy of Lusignan, Roger des Moulins - not to mention Geoffrey of Villehardouin. Some may have spoken more German-like, as Ichon said, but the Franks from the more eastern parts of the HRE were perhaps less successful in establishing themselves in the region. Geoffrey of Villehardouin wrote his history in old French.

[CoeurDeLion]

The most important aspect of history is always perspective. Though many of the posts in this thread state the historical facts accurately, some of the perspective is lost. Some of the leaders (and soldiers) of the Crusade came from parts of what in modern times we call Germany, and some came from what we today call France, but from the contemporary perspective of the Crusades they would have been far more likely to simply identify as Frankish regardless of what side of the Rhine they hailed from. Especially a region like Lorraine.

To the best of my knowledge the people of that time period who identified as "Germanic" were more along the north/east parts of modern day Germany.

[anonimo272]

but...boy, do I hate the French and their accents.

as a french can i ask why ?
btw a lorraine french

because i think statments like these are just , i am not trying to offend you or anything, but i just hate you because of your nationality...

[Andytheplatypus]

i am not trying to offend you or anything, but i just hate you because of your nationality...

Hah

But seriously, it seems to me that the op was just misinformed about his history.

[Valerius.Aenaes]

Well, yes, most of Europe was considered Frankish at the time - but that was a blanket term used by the rest of the world to describe France AND Germany. Charlemagne's Frankish Kingdom, after all, was both France and Germany at once before his death, when it was split apart. But, after generations of living around people speaking predominately one language and in one fashion, they will take on that accent. And this was...almost four hundred years? Five hundred? Since Lorraine was considered Holy Roman Empire territory. There would've been Germanic languages and accents abound.

I'm not saying it should be instituted into the mod, but it's something to think about for historical accuracy. They may only feel out of place, because you've grown used to hearing the French accents. It's, like I said, nothing big, just something that bugs me a little bit. I'm nothing if not a stickler for history, haha. History - it's my anti-drug.

Anyway, I'd be happy just to change it for myself, if there's a way to do it. I'll do as Lazy recommended and post in the Mod Workshop trying to figure out how to do it, but if anyone else has anything else to add to the subject?

[Mr.Fable]

I'm not saying it should be instituted into the mod, but it's something to think about for historical accuracy. They may only feel out of place, because you've grown used to hearing the French accents. It's, like I said, nothing big, just something that bugs me a little bit. I'm nothing if not a stickler for history, haha. History - it's my anti-drug.

Sticker for history? Ha. Don't know what history you're learning but you are wrong. Most Crusaders spoke French, not German. It's not about historical accuracy, you just hate the French.

[Raveyn Ravensworth]

So we come to the conclusion that one of the leaders of the first crusade might or might not have spoken german, this however, doesn't apply to the majority of the crusaders knights, who came from all over, though mostly from French speaking lands, thus making it more viable to have them speaking in French accents than in german ones. If we were to judge the language of a country by that spoken of a single important person in it at the time, England should have French accents as well. In the end its not really a historical inaccuracy, but more of a unknown factor, we don't know for sure what language they spoke in the Crusading States (in game represented by the Kingdom of Jerusalem), though one might assume they used one common language, which was probably French, at the time a language used by many nobles, as a sort of fashion language.

[Judeman266]

First, you have not established that he was German, only under the authority of the HRE or German rule. However even if we assume Godfrey of Bouillon was German, the majority of the crusaders were French. Over the next 2-3 centuries this trend continued. You cannot change an entire faction's accent simply because one of the founders was German. Even if you provide other examples, and of course there are some, the fact remains that the majority were French or french-speaking.

[Byg]

I may be wrong, but Godfrey of Bouillon was Duke of Lorraine until he took up the Cross and joined the Crusade against Jerusalem. After Antioch was taken and Bohemond refused to turn it over to the Byzantine Empire, he, Raymond IV and the remainder of the Crusader forces continued south and besieged Jerusalem. They captured the city in mid-1099 I believe it was, but I'm digressing big time.

Would it not be more historically accurate, I guess, if the Crusaders spoke with the German accents rather than French? Lorraine (or Lotharingia) was part of the Holy Roman Empire during this time. He himself was German. Like I said, I may be wrong, but I've read a few books. One recently called the History of the Medieval World by Susan Wise Bauer which got me thinking about this. I play this mod, and I love it. But playing the Kingdom of Jerusalem is always a double-edged sword for me. I like them, but...boy, do I hate the French and their accents.

It's obviously nothing pivotal to gameplay, but I would prefer it - and as I said, it seems as though it would, historically, be more accurate.

Perhaps there's a way to change this? If so, I'd be thankful if anyone could tell me.

Actually it would no more or less historically accurate because none of them spoke in English with a German or French accent.

[Judeman266]

Sometimes they speak in French. An example is "Oui mon roi," which means 'Yes my king'. Another is something like "Parlez-vous français imbéciles, non?" which is 'You do speak French, imbecile?' I can't think of any other phrases they say in French right now. The only way to be historically accurate would be to make each faction speak only in it's native tongue, some factions French, and some factions Latin too, but clearly that is probably not the best thing for gameplay. A few more phrases wouldn't hurt though.

[Ferdiad]

The heavily accented English is fine, its funny too.

[Velico]

Lorraine (or Alsace-Lorraine) has been swapped between the Germans and French so many times that the residents should probably look outside for the nearest flag before they say, "bonjour" or "guten tag."

[Aeratus]

I think the accent thing is for entertainment value only, and aren't meant to be taken serious. For one thing, everybody is still speaking and English, whereas back then, "nobody" spoke english, not even Richard the Lionhearted.

[Lazy]

As we are humans ( and not horses ) they should speak french...
Perhaps while installing our gender should be checked and the language swithed to spanish if needed...

[Ferdiad]

Thats a very possible with todays modding you do know.

[Andytheplatypus]

I may be wrong, but Godfrey of Bouillon was Duke of Lorraine until he took up the Cross and joined the Crusade against Jerusalem. After Antioch was taken and Bohemond refused to turn it over to the Byzantine Empire, he, Raymond IV and the remainder of the Crusader forces continued south and besieged Jerusalem. They captured the city in mid-1099 I believe it was, but I'm digressing big time.

Would it not be more historically accurate, I guess, if the Crusaders spoke with the German accents rather than French? Lorraine (or Lotharingia) was part of the Holy Roman Empire during this time. He himself was German. Like I said, I may be wrong, but I've read a few books. One recently called the History of the Medieval World by Susan Wise Bauer which got me thinking about this. I play this mod, and I love it. But playing the Kingdom of Jerusalem is always a double-edged sword for me. I like them, but...boy, do I hate the French and their accents.

It's obviously nothing pivotal to gameplay, but I would prefer it - and as I said, it seems as though it would, historically, be more accurate.

Perhaps there's a way to change this? If so, I'd be thankful if anyone could tell me.

Being that their accents are french and that MOST of the crusaders that came to the holy land were from France, it makes sense. Many more crusaders came from France than Germany throughout the medieval period.