Does Church have a point?

[Ardeur]

Personally, I've developed the opinion that the only reason the church exists is to give untalented hacks a sandbox to burn ants in. Take the church I attend. The elders and the ministers repeatedly break from Scripture in the name of being "seeker sensitive". They steal because it would turn people off to have to pay for things. They plagiarize because they don't have the time or the talent to compose their own lessons and sermon material. They water the message of God down to such a degree, that it isn't even recognizable when held up to Scripture.

I've grown increasingly frustrated with this church, and so I began to wonder why we go to church at all. Some claim that church attendance is required for 3 reasons, for prayer, for worship, and for participating in communion. I find this argument flawed. I can pray in my home. I worship daily, and I can partake of communion from my home as well. You'll also note that Jesus told us to go into our bedrooms and shut the door when we pray, not to go to church for prayer. Paul taught repeatedly that worship should be done in our daily lives, not just Sunday at church. And Jesus' command to be remembered through the taking of the emblems said nothing about it only being valid when done from church.

So my question to other Christians would be, what is the point of actually going to church on Sunday, and what is its bearing on salvation?

[Veresov]

Personally, I've developed the opinion that the only reason the church exists is to give untalented hacks a sandbox to burn ants in. Take the church I attend. The elders and the ministers repeatedly break from Scripture in the name of being "seeker sensitive". They steal because it would turn people off to have to pay for things. They plagiarize because they don't have the time or the talent to compose their own lessons and sermon material. They water the message of God down to such a degree, that it isn't even recognizable when held up to Scripture.

I've grown increasingly frustrated with this church, and so I began to wonder why we go to church at all. Some claim that church attendance is required for 3 reasons, for prayer, for worship, and for participating in communion. I find this argument flawed. I can pray in my home. I worship daily, and I can partake of communion from my home as well. You'll also note that Jesus told us to go into our bedrooms and shut the door when we pray, not to go to church for prayer. Paul taught repeatedly that worship should be done in our daily lives, not just Sunday at church. And Jesus' command to be remembered through the taking of the emblems said nothing about it only being valid when done from church.

So my question to other Christians would be, what is the point of actually going to church on Sunday, and what is its bearing on salvation?

It is hard to answer your question as you dont give any information on your church or your beliefs. Among Catholics it is required to worship both individually and to attend mass. To do both is to strengthen your faith, but not to attend mass is to neglect good works towards others. A Christian must worship in a community for good works.

My community worships in a traditional latin mass which must be attended daily. There is a one hour prayer thats mandatory. This sounds maybe excessive but everyone that worships is of like mind, same beliefs, and same dedication to Christ. There are no false Christians in our community as the daily commitments quickly wash them out. Worship is very powerful and moving. Our community is very organized and we do many good works with could never be done with one person.

[Keresztes]

All religions in history have demanded sacrifices to their god(s). Most have demanded animals, people, or wealth.

The god of Abraham demands the sacrifice of your time (in church), as well as exclusive belief in god and only god. Wealth in the form of tithes also used to be required, but this isn't so common anymore.

[the Black Prince]

my old church was a good social space.... used to see a number of good friends there...

It is hard to answer your question as you dont give any information on your church or your beliefs. Among Catholics it is required to worship both individually and to attend mass. To do both is to strengthen your faith, but not to attend mass is to neglect good works towards others. A Christian must worship in a community for good works.

My community worships in a traditional latin mass which must be attended daily. There is a one hour prayer thats mandatory. This sounds maybe excessive but everyone that worships is of like mind, same beliefs, and same dedication to Christ. There are no false Christians in our community as the daily commitments quickly wash them out. Worship is very powerful and moving. Our community is very organized and we do many good works with could never be done with one person.

if you spend so much time in mass and prayer, where do you find the time to actually do anything?
to not attend mass is to neglect good works toward others...
i apologise for really not understanding that point... attending mass is good for others? how?

the many good works your community does? do they benefit the community, or other people?

[ZaPPPa]

i apologise for really not understanding that point... attending mass is good for others? how?

Good for the church in the form of donations.

[mongoose]

I second the point raised by tBP. How exactly does sitting in a room and praying for an hour help people? Charity work done by the church does help people, but that's obviously different from praying.

[shenmueguru]

Church is a great way to keep the fire burning, i.e. keep God your number 1. Of course we pray and worship during the day, and we are not commanded to go to church, as you say. However, we are encouraged to meet with other christians, to share faith, and worship together. Church, as far as I'm concerned, is the best place to do that. Now if you are having problems with your church, if you don't like the leadership/whatever else, first and foremost pray to God that you may have a resolution. Have faith in what you do, whether that be switching or staying.

[Evariste]

At the very least, it's a good way to make friends. I was always a little jealous of my church-going pals. They always had a strong base of companions and a good support group. Still, my pity for their religious beliefs outweighed my jealousy.

[Marcus Scaurus]

At the very least, it's a good way to make friends. I was always a little jealous of my church-going pals. They always had a strong base of companions and a good support group. Still, my pity for their religious beliefs outweighed my jealousy.

It sure is. About two third of the people I know I've met in church. The only good reason to go to the church is to make friends, imo.

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, I obviously can't comment on your own Church, I can say that at my own Orthodox Church we are lucky in not really having these problems. You won't ever find someone 'watering down' Orthodox worship, that's for sure! Our priests are highly educated and quite eloquent (though the priest of the Russian Orthodox parish has somewhat of a monotonous voice; my own Greek priest is much better in this respect), so as far as I'm aware their sermons are quite original.

You're right in saying that we shouldn't just go to Church on a Sunday. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't go to Church at all on a Sunday. But, to deal with the three main points that you raised:

1. Prayer - you can pray in your home, and you really should (we Orthodox do it every morning and night). But the Church (or at least, our Orthodox Church; I can't speak for your own) is very much a communal institution - each person is a member in the strictest sense of the word (i.e. 'limb'). We Orthodox believe that our prayers have more force when we pray together, demonstrating our unity before God.
2. Worship - again, you will want to worship daily, but, as with the above point, you don't want to forget that you are part of a larger whole.
3. Communion - I don't really understand what you're talking about here. You can take it at home? Well, I'm not familiar with your Church, like I say. Certainly an Orthodox wouldn't really consider taking communion except in a Divine Liturgy, when s/he is surrounded by the whole Church (spiritually as well as physically). After all, that is the point of communion - partaking of the body and blood of Christ communally, enjoying the divine mysteries as one community of Christians.

I suppose that what I would emphasise the most is this - you're not just an individual. When you are baptised, you join the Church, and in joining the Church you become a part of something greater than yourself. It's a bit like Socialism, but in spiritual terms.

[Siblesz]

I love to go into a Church and witness mass insanity in action. A gathering of people who dare not think a thought beyond that which has been encrypted in their mind for years is just plain fun to watch. It provides morbid entertainment, in a sense. Priests preaching recycled material from the same source every single sunday, masses pretending to listen to repeated words as they sink within the superficiality of their minds, an air of silence pervading the halls so intensely that the sound of a baby crying is the only voice that anyone dares usher, people gathering in pefect lines to consume of a piece of wafer that supposedly equates or signifies the body of Christ... I don't know... once you sit and observe the behavior, it becomes clear how insane it really is.

I hope this contributes to the thread in some way... just a rant, but an acceptable rant in the sense that it builds upon your argument that going to Church really doesn't mean anything and that worshippers in Church mostly don't listen to a word of the communion.

[cjbeattie]

lol Siblesz

couldnt of said it better my self...

only thing is i think in 2000 years they will look back at our religions as we do on the egyptains, greek gods... makes the church look very silly..

Craig

[Ardeur]

I'm pleased to see this question being taken seriously, and I appreciate everyone's input, including that of Sibs.

My church has no priests, no 'mass'. I attend a Church of Christ. I don't know if you'd call that Protestant or what, I never did really bother trying to track down what 'denomination' I am in.

On prayer, I appreciate many of the comments, and for the user who questioned how prayer = helping people, that is more a question of faith. One can't always measure the effectiveness of prayer. Sometimes God's answers aren't as clear as others, so it is hard to gauge if your prayers are helping people or not. In my own case, prayer helps make me a better, more humble, more focused person, which in turn helps me help others.

On worship, Veresov, I am glad to see that there are churches out there who feel it necessary to meet daily. My church's minister is always trying to tell us we need to be more like the 1st Century Church, but then sternly breaks every tradition they set down. The early church met daily, and I'm glad to see that at least someone feels like that model should be followed. If only we could get that type of devotion out of people in my church.

And you bring up an excellent point. But one I would have to ignorantly question. Not having ever been around people who meet for worship daily, I can only guess, but wouldn't such an emphasis on these acts and works cause someone to look to themselves for salvation rather than to Christ? I agree that many of the false Christians in my church would be weeded out through such a rigorous program, and I would love to see such a schedule put into practice in my church. I suppose the possibility for sin would exist in any environment.

On Communion, I guess I should clarify that by Communion, my church is referring to the Eucharist. I can partake the emblems in remembrance of Christ anywhere, because there is nothing special about the bread, the cup, or where it is being served. They are all symbols of the monument that Christ instituted when He said "Do this in remembrance of me." It could be wine, grape juice, or water even... Crackers, bread, or cookies. The main point is to center your heart and mind on the sacrifice, remembering that His body was broken and His blood was spilled for the redemption of all mankind.

At least that's my take on it.

So when we boil it down, these answers are the same answers I received from the handful of people I've asked about it here. The answer is Fellowship, which is not a necessary component of salvation, but as someone said, we are encouraged to fellowship with other believers. The problem I find myself facing is that I have evidence that my church's leadership is preaching a false message. The congregation is being led astray, because every attempt to divulge this evidence has been met with apathy and denial. I could look for another church, but as I prepare to do so, asking around about other churches, I find many of the same problems being present. While I understand we are all sinners, and to expect pefection out of anyone is to expect an impossible thing; the whole situation has me asking these questions. What's worse, I am not alone in my knowledge. Many of the people in the church I talk to are aware of the problems, but rather than do anything, they choose the road of apathy, a road I'm unwilling to take.

While I don't get any amusement whatsoever out of it, I have to agree with Sibs. We recently had a 'fellowship' dinner at our church, and I had the opportunity to just sit back and observe, and what I saw disgusted me. Cliques, various family groups squabbling to gain some sort of influence over the congregation. "My child needs their name announced in front of everyone." "My family is more involved in this ministry than yours." "I'm in a position of authority, you do what I say, not the other way around."

I find myself in the vast minority, so I wonder if perhaps I'm the one who is wrong in this. But if that's the case, I have no desire to be right, because to become like these people would be misery.

[Zenith Darksea]

Ah, I see. You're not talking about Communion in the sense that the Orthodox would. Well, I suppose that this is what I've come to expect from Protestant denominations anyway. I must say, I haven't heard of the 'Church of Christ' before.

As for your post Siblesz, I wouldn't expect anything less from an atheist. Let me tell you, what you have said is completely mis-guided. If you insist on putting negatively emotive terminology on it, then it might seem odd, but this would be true of practically anything. If you're not a Christian, then you obviously won't understand what is going on. There is nothing at all superficial about a Church service, and while I'm sure there are some people who are there for form's sake, I can say from experience that the congregation at an Orthodox liturgy listens intently and is deeply focused on the Christian message. Your post signifies nothing more than bias, ignorance, and a cunning use of emotive language.

Our own Orthodox Church has a Sunday liturgy, but we also have daily Vespers, a vigil on Saturday night, and often a liturgy on a Wednesday morning. Added to this of course we also have various feast days, that can add special services during the week. For example, this Friday there will be a service in honour of the Mother of God. Not everyone can make it to every service, but where we can, we try. I don't think that it leads to the individual rather than Christ being seen as the source of salvation; I've never seen any evidence of this. And on the point of Communion, we don't just think that it's symbolic (no Christian ever thought this until quite recently), but that Christ is actually present in the bread and wine. We don't say how exactly this is so (obviously if you examined them they would still have their ordinary physical properties), but leave that to Divine Mystery.

Like I say, I can't comment on the Church of Christ. However, I can understand what you're feeling. I went through this myself before coming to Orthodoxy. In fact, many people have felt this exact same way. I suppose that I would urge you to consider Orthodoxy, though I shan't spend too long on it here. You can get a quick, easy to digest guide to it here: Orthodoxy For Absolute Beginners. More pertinently, you can look here: Why Orthodoxy?.

[Garbarsardar]

I think we are addressing three different aspects of the church at the same time in this thread. Let me clarify that my experience comes mainly from the Orthodox Church (being Greek) and I am not a religious person.

The first level is the church as interpretation of a doctrine, or as a system and implementation tool of worship. I have absolutely no opinion to offer here as I am not interested in this aspect.

The second level is the church as an organization of religious managment. In that sense, I can find few churches more backward and outright facsist then the Church of Greece. We are talking about people who excommunicated two Greek righters for touching upon issues of faith, put fire in a movie theater that was screening "The last temptation of Christ" and used political pressure to ban (yes ban) this movie. The church is plagued by sexual and political scandals that led to the demotion of the Patriarch of Jerusalem, the head of the Greek church is a fascist who rose to the ranks and supported the dictatorship, not tomention the accidental presence of neo nazi hate groups in every church public activity.

The third level and probably the only one I am interested in, is the church as a place of social interaction as it happens to many small villages, or as a monument since we have more then 1000 Byzantine churches in Greece. In those cases the church can be a wonderfull experience, religious feasts in small villages are almost pagan, and if the church singers have good voices you are in for a treat. It also one of the rare cases that I can feel touched by the religiosity of others especially if we are talking about villages with 30 inhabitants and not even a small grocery. In this cases the church is the socal and cultural center of the village.

As for the architectural aspect:

[Zenith Darksea]

Yes, that's one thing I have to admit - the Church of Greece really could do with dragging itself into this century! I mean, you can only blame Ottoman oppression up to a certain point. It's a shame that the Church of Greece has become so entwined with the affairs of the Greek state - this is something that really must be changed. Fortunately the Greek Orthodox Church here in Britain is considerably more progressive.

I can wholeheartedly agree with your final point, Garb. Even our own Church, which is nowhere near as nice as traditional Byzantine ones, has a beautiful atmosphere to it.

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

Well the church as a enterprise really has no purpose these days except for a few people(talking about Sweden now).
Personally I think we should get rid of most of our churches and create living spaces or offices. That would far more useful then a church.
But the church as a building can be nice and now I'm talking about old churches like medieval ones. There is such a presence of evil in those places that it is unbelievable.
I have been to torture chambers and execution places but neither of those places has a such a strong presences of evil like a old church does.
Something bad happened in churches that is far worse then torture or killing people.

[Zenith Darksea]

That's an interesting point of view...

Personally I think we should get rid of most of our churches and create living spaces or offices.

Don't you have enough space for those things as it is? And what about the Christians' right to have places of worship? To those who have said that Churches are just places for people to be superficial and do what they're told, I would point out that being a servant of God is, in my mind, preferable to being a slave to big business.

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

Don't you have enough space for those things as it is?

More spaces is always nice .
right now we got quite a few churches that no one uses and are infact abandoned. These places could be better served.

And what about the Christians' right to have places of worship?

aww and what about all the pagan temples the christians burned down to make room for their churches ?? What about their right to worship ??

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, which pagan temples are you referring to exactly? How about some nice examples, rather than empty, emotive words?

I don't know of course how many Christians there are in Sweden. Could you give some statistics?