Phalanx trouble

[Ambiso]

Hey guys,
M not new to Total war games but I just recently got hold of RTW.
The gameplay is much faster with infantries overtaking cavalry and melees being over in a blink of an eye. Irritating glitches like a huge chunk of men getting stuck into a building and leaving themselves seperated and vulnerable. I got used to these though. The problem: Phalanx!

I know it says that phalanx r weak from the flank or rear but...
1) I surprise a Greek phalanx unit with a unit of equites well hidden in the woods. They had no chance to turn n face the attack (Ho ho ho clever me...) But noooo.....my equites run about the front killing only a few phalanx and being slaughtered. So much for the surprise!
2)OK. So a single cavalry shock from rear doesn't work. So...I engage a hoplite unit with hastatis (of course the pilas first, always the pilas first). Then I charge at the flank/rear with equites. Both Roman units rout n Caesar turns in his grave.
3)Scrap cavalry! I try flanking with two infantry. I do manage to rout the hoplite(regular ones) but suffer heavy casualties.
4)A hoplite militia (MILITIA!!!!) can beat the crap out of a professional Hastati!!! Professional!!!! Even Princips!!!

Now anyone got any bright ideas???

[empr guy]

well for starters, Equites are very bad and should not be used to fight infantry alone, and Hastati were not profesional troops by any means, and Principes were just a bit more experianced; you won't get profesional romans until the Marian reforms.

as for the phalanx themselves, make sure the always use the pila and flank them, you will probably take alot of casualties, but you should win. Also you should be able to out produce the greeks and macedonians and win the war in the end, unless your playing on hard or something.

[Spike]

do you play on very hard battle difficulty?

[Bringer Of Storms]

What your doing should work just fine unless they're Spartans. Hastatii engage in the front then cavalry charge from behind while the hoplites are fighting the Hastatii should break them. It always works for me. I find Equites extremely useful in the Campaign.

[mesor]

Are you using cavalry in wedge?

Line your cavalry up behind them close by once there engaged before charging you want to impact the entire unit at once not just one small piece of it.
Try to hit 2 sides at once i tend to pin them then cavalry charge into the back right after hastati throw pilla into there sides.
Hitting in side ignores shields so it does big damage and severely hurts morale the cavalry charge almost always shatters them at that point.

[empr guy]

That reminds me, I am pretty sure that units get a shield bonus on their left side, so if a hoplite unit is pinned down try and charge or fire missles into their right flank.

[trustno1(2)]

That reminds me, I am pretty sure that units get a shield bonus on their left side

That's also historically correct. The hoplite's shield extended to the left so to provide cover for the man on their left. Sucks to be the guy on the far right.

So, if coming from flank/rear of phalanx with one unit, attack to the right or encompass the whole of their rear.

Playing on medium difficulty helps to.

[Bringer Of Storms]

That's also historically correct. The hoplite's shield extended to the left so to provide cover for the man on their left. Sucks to be the guy on the far right.

But, the shield isn't hugging their entire left side, so it would be pointless to go to extra trouble to sweep around the right to attack. I've never noticed a Phalanx being stronger on the left in this game. I have a feeling that extra protection wouldn't help from an arrow coming from the side. Total War has never been known for spot on realism.

Gah! Another thing, why do so many people claim the Equites to be weak? I've won some pretty impressive battles with them. Are people charging them into spears? They're fast and maneuverable and can easily outflank any infantry. Two Equites can easily win a battle against a larger force with patience, flanks, and hit and run. Yes it's true, they aren't Companions, or Catphracts. But for what they are they are pretty devastating.

[RonaldAniban]

In hard Difficulty the AI gets +4 attack and morale. In VH they get more. That's what I hate in RTW. Just play in VH/M if you want. Just keep the battle difficulty to Medium for the sake of justice.

In medium difficulty (without AI cheats YAY) I can pawn militia phalangites with a single hestati. I simply increase their width (longer than the phalangites) so that they could wrap the enemy. Then they kill them but only get few casualties (the enemies are militias after all).

For professional phalanx units I flank them.

But in VH, it's very unfair.

[Ambiso]

Thanks people. Lets hop that I can boot those people out of ASIA minor!!!!
Hastatis and Princips are not professionals???????? WOW!!!!! I always thought they were. But they have to be better trained than militias!!!

[RonaldAniban]

Thanks people. Lets hop that I can boot those people out of ASIA minor!!!!
Hastatis and Princips are not professionals???????? WOW!!!!! I always thought they were. But they have to be better trained than militias!!!

Just play on Medium Difficulty in battles.

[Thrillology]

I don't know why Equites are so weak- but in real Roman history, the Equites are strong and rich.
I have been interested in Rome and Medieval for ages. In the current book on Rome I am reading, it states what I have written above.

This goes on topic with units being queer as well-
Why when I siege an enemy fort or sometimes a town/city, the enemy runs in circles until they're worn down and then they slaughter my troops despite their morale being low, and them being exhausted with a dead general?

[loseless]

I always play in VH/VH and I have to say, phalanx are the easiest of all enemies, for one simple reason: they are extremely predictable.

They are slow, and the computer isn't a genius. Just use the lay of the land. Get the phalanx to follow you until you have the height advantage. On the way use skirmirshers and archers to cut down their numbers (I can't say this enough times to rookies: phalanxes drop like flies against missiles because they are SLOW). Exploit that predictability. Then use the terrain to attack from the flank.

Don't waste time with the center of their lines. It's useless. Mow down the flank units (two units per flank) and then attack then attack them from the side with just one or two units. The center of you're line just needs to hold (always enable defensive mode). When two or tree units from each side route, the whole phalanx will break and then you just need to use the cavalry to scare the remnants of they're units (from behind, of course) and chase the fleeing ones.

Avoid cavalry charges if you're rookie. Equites are not bad, they are actually pretty good, considering how cheap and easily can be recruited. They just aren't easy to use. It takes months of gameplay to master the horses, and believe me, that's the hardest part of the game. But when you master them, two units of cavalry can destroy a 7 or 8 unit army, as long as there aren't other horses or skirmishers on the enemy side, tough.

[z3n]

Now I'm imagining my militia cavalry taking out a 7 or 8 unit army of urban cohorts on VH!

I think you might be exaggerating a tiny bit. . .maybe 2 units of scythian nobles vs 4 or 5 units of peasants on VH but definately not 7 or 8.




Here's my two cents for the OP. Ambushes make a enemy panic for a few seconds causing a temporary drop in morale. I've never used ambushes unless I'm defending and in a desperate situation. They're simply more trouble than they are worth especially when you don't pause the game during a battle.

Anyways. Always 'go scipio' on the enemy as often as you can. Pause the game whenever you need to and try to anticipate the enemy. If you see heavy infantry in the centre put an infantry type in your centre that you know can hold them off until you can attack them from behind or the flanks. Place your general directly behind the spots where you expect the fighting to be heaviest and use the rally troop button to full advantage.

Phalanx's are only vunerable from behind when engaged with an enemy. I would have used the equitates to lure the phalanx into an ambush by hastatii perferably from behind and shower them with pila. Then get them to lure the phalanx into the woods with your hastatii where they should have a slight stat reduction if I remember correctly. Engage them with your hastatii and charge them from behind with your equitates. Once their momentum is played out charge repeat the cycle.

Just remember. Once you've gone scipio on them they won't stand a chance unless they're urban cohorts/spartans vs an army of peasants.

two units of cavalry can destroy a 7 or 8 unit army, as long as there aren't other horses or skirmishers on the enemy side, tough.

[loseless]

But of course I meant that cavalry units can take several enemy units of the same valor. Don't expect militia cavalry to destroy spartans or praetorians... But on the other hand, Companions and Cataphracts can actually do it (been there before).

[z3n]

That won't happen on VH either unless they are supported by medium infantry or have a skilled family member. But it is possible I suppose.

One cavalry unit vs several units of the same valour and winning I haven't ever seen or orchestrated in RTW. I've done it in MTW2, though.

But of course I meant that cavalry units can take several enemy units of the same valor. Don't expect militia cavalry to destroy spartans or praetorians... But on the other hand, Companions and Cataphracts can actually do it (been there before).

[loseless]

It's not that inconceivable. There are two factors that need to be taken under consideration.

The terrain and the unit stats. I don't play RTW vanilla since 2007, so my cavalry units will hardly have the same stats as yours, or the same numbers. Then I usually use the height advantage in countering the enemy units. This, together with fatigue and attacking the weaker units first or/and going for the general, ends up in a easy victory.