Defence cuts in Italy: F-35 under fire

[Principe Alessandro]

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...+Fire+In+Italy

ROME — The Italian government is ushering in a new round of defense cuts in which, for the first time, the fate of Rome’s participation in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program will be seriously threatened.

The newly launched defense review not only has sweeping implications for Italy’s defense ambitions but also rings in a further belt-tightening in Europe among countries that are just beginning to come to grips with the scale of their budget and debt problems.

In Italy, much of the work on the military review remains to be completed. Nevertheless, a sharp reduction in the number of F-35s Italy will buy is virtually certain, military officials say. At least a third of the 131 fighters slated for procurement will likely fall under the budget ax, with some minority parties arguing for an outright program termination.

Rome is one of the largest international buyers of the F-35 — after the U.K. drastically cut its procurement objective in its 2010 spending review. Italy plans to spend €13 billion ($16.7 billion) to buy and sustain both the F-35A conventional-takeoff-and-landing and the F-35B short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing versions, though it has not ordered any aircraft yet.

Other major procurement projects are also under scrutiny, but the F-35 has received the lion’s share of attention because of the size of the planned outlays.

Although Italy assessed its spending needs in 2010 in light of an era of fiscal austerity, the change late last year to a technocratic government, led by Mario Monti, specifically put in place to handle the country’s financial problems more aggressively, has put military spending back in the crosshairs. The government, although not elected, enjoys broad support in the parliament to carry out sweeping reforms.

Also potentially affecting the JSF debate is the fact that the government is very much focused on budget considerations rather than foreign policy ambitions. Cancelling the 22 navy F-35Bs would leave the service without fighters to put on its aircraft carrier after the AV-8B Harriers are retired. While that would crimp the ability to project forces, those considerations may not hold much sway with the Monti government. Such a move would likely cause the Italian air force also to drop plans to buy 40 F-35Bs and focus instead entirely on the F-35A.

On the other hand, working in the JSF’s favor is that even at reduced numbers, the F-35 procurement would allow Italy to capitalize on the €2.5 billion it spent or pledged to the development and construction of a JSF final assembly and check out (FACO) facility at Cameri air force base. Work on the FACO is progressing quickly to be ready by 2014 to meet original JSF production schedules.

Well personally I agree cutting the number of F-35s to purchase especially considering how many EF-2000 we already have and the fact that we don't need so many advanced offensive aircrafts.

I only hope that they won't cut the F-35Bs that should be embarked on our carriers.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Why do you need an F-35?

[AqD]

Why do you need an F-35?

Because the military industry would die if people stop buying new weapons!

[Principe Alessandro]

We do need the F-35 especially in a heavy saturated environment with AA weapons but 131 F-35 are simply overkill. Especially for our Navy's carriers they are essential because apart the Harriers that soon they will be retired we haven't any other option until the arrival of the F35B.

[MathiasOfAthens]

My point was that you dont really go to war that often anymore and they wont really be used to defend Italy against some aggressor from the north or whatnot.

[Principe Alessandro]

Not to defend, I already stated that the F-35 is a offensive aircraft and we need them if we are going to participate in a eventual NATO intervention but we don't need so many of them especially the A variant.

For Air policing and Air supremacy we already have the Eurofighter which is better suited for this role.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

The IAF does not need any aircraft.

[6644kp]

The F-35 program has been plagued with so many problems. And they still won't come into service until 2016.

[mrmouth]

Its an incredibly ambitious program. You are filling the role of three aircraft, in one. And beyond that - multiple advanced capabilities. Air superiority, advanced ground attack, electronic surveillance/warfare and intelligence gathering. I don't think people appreciate just what this program is attempting to achieve. This thing is going to be an all in one kick to the groin. You could take stealth out of the equation and it would still be a hell of thing.

It's two programs - hardware and software. Everything hardware side works, but the HW program suffers from almost constant redesigns. It's a unique airframe, and they are finding out that models only go so far. Same with the F-22. They are doing things they have not done before, with materials they have not used much, if at all.

And software hasn't been written yet, which lends credence to the reports years ago of China or Russia stealing portions of the early code.

You have multiple countries involved, and an insane amount of inaccurate, bad press. Its the Boeing 787 program on steroids. Japan doesnt sign on late last year if the ultimate result is not a phenomenal 5th gen advanced-multirole stealth fighter.

And the unspoken thing in all of this is just how the F22/F35 program spur along the future of the fighter aircraft. While being developed now, unmanned fighter programs are piggybacking off of the stealth fighter programs, at much lower cost.

[6644kp]

Its an incredibly ambitious program. You are filling the role of three aircraft, in one. And beyond that - multiple advanced capabilities. Air superiority, advanced ground attack, electronic surveillance/warfare and intelligence gathering. I don't think people appreciate just what this program is attempting to achieve. This thing is going to be an all in one kick to the groin. You could take stealth out of the equation and it would still be a hell of thing.

It's two programs - hardware and software. Everything hardware side works, but the HW program suffers from almost constant redesigns. It's a unique airframe, and they are finding out that models only go so far. Same with the F-22. They are doing things they have not done before, with materials they have not used much, if at all.

And software hasn't been written yet, which lends credence to the reports years ago of China or Russia stealing portions of the early code.

You have multiple countries involved, and an insane amount of inaccurate, bad press. Its the Boeing 787 program on steroids. Japan doesnt sign on late last year if the ultimate result is not a phenomenal 5th gen advanced-multirole stealth fighter.

And the unspoken thing in all of this is just how the F22/F35 program spur along the future of the fighter aircraft. While being developed now, unmanned fighter programs are piggybacking off of the stealth fighter programs, at much lower cost.

Yeah but I bet if this wasnt a 5th Gen Jet Fighter many nations would not bother.
Many of the partner nations already have Eurofighter Typhoons, Daussault Rafales, Saab Gripens and of course F15's and 16's.

Anyway they have to contend with the 5th Gen Sukhoi which will be widely exported.
Both Aircraft are expected to enter service around 2016.

[Pielstick]

Here we go again....

Right then. The F-35 and it's "problems". The problems faced by the F-35 are no different to just about any other major combat aircraft programme throughout aviation history. The difference is the F-35 is under more media scrutiny than any aircraft that went before.

I can only imagine what it would have been like in the 50's and 60's if design programmes then had come under the same scrutiny. The F-35 naysayers would be having fits.

The big question mark with the F-35 is now hovering over the F-35B (pun intended). It's looking more and more like it's sacrificed too much payload/range/performance to get the STOVL capability and could be more trouble than it's worth. One of the main customers for the type - the UK - had switched its order to the F-35C and the biggest customer, the USMC is currently wavering over uncertainties about its future aviation capabilities.

Will Italy get 131 F-35s? No. Not on God's Green Earth. They can't afford them.

[Pielstick]

You are filling the role of three aircraft, in one. And beyond that - multiple advanced capabilities. Air superiority, advanced ground attack, electronic surveillance/warfare and intelligence gathering.

It can be done. The Super Hornet is already doing all of these. The Tornado has multiple variants that covered all those bases too.

[Imperial]

It can be done. The Super Hornet is already doing all of these. The Tornado has multiple variants that covered all those bases too.

Both of them aren't VTOL.

[Adar]

It's two programs - hardware and software. Everything hardware side works, but the HW program suffers from almost constant redesigns. It's a unique airframe, and they are finding out that models only go so far. Same with the F-22. They are doing things they have not done before, with materials they have not used much, if at all.

Actually there are several hardware issues remaining according to the officials managing the program (source, at the bottom of the page you got the report).

The most major ones found so far are:

The integrated power package fails far too frequently. This is especially worrying to considering that the JSF uses a single power package to operate engine start, power generation and air flow within the aircraft. The time to replace it is also very long which makes replacing them a major issue.

Helmer mounted display supposed to be a major feature of the aircraft but suffers from severe issues with vibrations and lag. At the moment the lag is 130ms for video and 50 ms for images while the requirement is 40/30ms.

The fuel dump system sprays fuel over the wings and undercarriage when used. Producing a major fire hazard and may even force the F-35 to drop it's weapons if making an emergency landing.

Arresting hook fails on the carrier variant as the distance between he landing gear and hook is too short. Making the landing gear push down the cable and preventing the arresting hook from coming into contact with it. Therefore forcing the reengineering of the back end of the plane.

Something classified the report does later mention classified survivability issues so apparently it is something critical to the aircrafts survival.

The report also cite several issues regarding the aircrafts Air-to-Surface Attack capabilities and Air to air capabilites. Especially the air warfare capability looks quite worrying: "The operational testers cited unsatisfactory progress and the likelihood of severa operation impacts for survivability, lethality air vehicle perfomance, and amployment. These conclusions were driven by certain classified issues, critical performance for the helmet mounted display, air vehicle performance and air-to-air weapons employment".

[Holger Danske]

The IAF does not need any aircraft.

, and Greece can't afford any aircraft....

As for the F-35.
It's already an outdated program in many ways and it will be killed by the many budget overruns and the fact that many potential customers are fleeing the sinking ship. While I do not doubt that the US will buy some it is certain that the overall prodution and sale will be much smaller than projected. It will never reach the same commerical success of the F-16, F-15, or even the F-18. While the Joint Strike Fighter was an impressive project it has become overshadowed by the overwhelming potential of UCAVS, which will only become more dominant.

A 2.0 JSF based on UCAV technology would be interesting. The USAF/CIA certainly has experience with them.

[Caesar Germanico]

In a time like this were everything has to be cut it makes sense to cut military expenses too, they are not unnecessary or stupid "toys" certainly but Italy at the moment can't afford them and as we have little interest in military intervention to begin with they are not a priority.

[hellheaven1987]

So why Italy needs 131 F-35?

[Odenat]

So why Italy needs 131 F-35?

To protect themselves from Albania ?

[Principe Alessandro]

So why Italy needs 131 F-35?

We don't need 131 F-35. We desperately need few new STOVL aircrafts to replace the aging Harriers. We are participating in this program only to keep on our carriers a Navy aviation.

We can't even convert them for a CATOBAR aircraft because they are too small.

[Ketnix]

No doubt that the F-35 is an incredible weapons project, but I don't see Italy needing them any time soon. If it helps getting them out of that economic rut they are in im all for it.