Armor quality

[Knel]

Hi!

All units, even unarmored, have at least 1 armor. My simple question: Why?

Is that the "armor" that their skin gives them, I don´t understand that, in M2TW unarmored units have 0 armor. Here I see Breeland Militia with 3 armor, with padded armor upgrade 4. That lead me to other problems:

Gondor Militia starts with chainmail armor that gives them only 4 armor. Gondor mail gives as much protection as Eriador padded/leather?

I can understand that e.g. dwarven armor is superior to others but I think that this should be only for their metal armor (includes all units except miners). Dwarven miners wear leather/padded armor which gives them 7 armor? Units from other factions with 7 armor wear advanced chainmail or better.

Mountain Trolls have less armor (6) than Dwarven Miners(?), there comes my before mentioned "skin armor" back in. Trolls have very little armor compared to their Defence Skill. I thought Defence Skill is something like dodge/parry an attack because it only counts when the unit gets attacked from the front. In my opinion it would make more sense to give them more armor and less skill-defence(that would make them less vulnerbale to the back where they get attacked quite often). I know that swapping some of their defence from skill to armor will make them more vulnerbale to AP-units but that would seem more correct for me than it is now.

For light elven units like Silvan spears I would swap numbers in the other direction, I know that they have already superior defence through skill.

And maybe it would be possible to give units with long shields more shield defence than round shield because at the moment Breeland Militia has with long shields the same shield defence (3) than Dale units with wooden round shield (but round shield units could get mor skill-defence compared to long shields).

Sorry if I have overseen a very similar thread.

I play this mod since 3.0 release and I really like it, so please don´t get me wrong.

[k/t]

I recommend getting Darth Lord Revan's RR/RC for 3.1 mod. It is an adaptation of Point Blank's Real Recruitment/Real Combat system, which makes any mod a lot better (as in most mods, units have stats based on fantasy and guessing). I haven't tried it, but mostly he copied the stats from an older version made by Point Blank himself, so it should be pretty good.

Armour upgrades give 2 points each, not 1. The game doesn't display the correct number.

Defense skill works at 100% in the front, to the left and to the right.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Armour upgrades give 2 points each, not 1. The game doesn't display the correct number.

Defense skill works at 100% in the front, to the left and to the right.

That would be new to me. Where did you get that info from?

In vanilla M2TW, armour depends on the actual level, e.g. padded armour gives +2, but upgrading that to chain gives only an additional +1. I don't know how this is in TATW however. Always supposed it to be the same.

[k/t]

No, upgrades give +2 in Vanilla M2 and in everything that's based on it because it's hardcoded. Tests were done to determine the true value of an upgrade.

Armour values were complete BS in Vanilla M2. Just like every other stat.

The "Faust" PDF by brandybarrel has an explanation of how armour, defense skill and shields work, and several powerful modders have attested to its veracity.

Armour works at 100% from any direction, 50% against AP weapons.

Shields are 100% from the front and 50% from the sides.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Everything as you said k/t. I've use the "Faust" for years now. But it gives no information on the actual value of an upgrade. So I guess I have to believe you there, unless you could point me to a test such as you mentioned.

[Knel]

Thanks for the explanations k/t. I´ll try Darth Lord Revan's RR/RC for 3.1 when it gets compatible with Baron Samedi`s submodcompilation because I can´t play anymore without it espacially since I played my first campaign with the "vanilla stack spam" disabled. But my problem should be solved, Darth Lord Revan wants to make it compatible, so I hope it´s just a matter of time.

[webba84]

I can recommend Revans RR/RC as well, been playing with it a lot and in general it is balanced with unit stats that make a lot more sense.

[Påsan]

Most of the stats have to do with AI balance rather than "looks" Gondor Militia have crappy armour to prevent the player from blitzing Mordor with militia on turn 5.

[Santeri]

Just curiosity, how well this Revans RR/RC compensates the good old PPs RR/RC?

[k/t]

Just curiosity, how well this Revans RR/RC compensates the good old PPs RR/RC?

I think you mean "compares to".

I haven't tried it, but mostly he copied the stats from an older version made by Point Blank himself

Then he used Moneybags' Excel sheets to determine the stats for units that have been added since 1.4.

RR/RC has a subforum in the Stainless Steel section, and I've uploaded some files that explain it in the submod section of The Last Kingdom.

[Vifarc]

Hi!Mountain Trolls have less armor (6) than Dwarven Miners(?), there comes my before mentioned "skin armor" back in. Trolls have very little armor compared to their Defence Skill. I thought Defence Skill is something like dodge/parry an attack because it only counts when the unit gets attacked from the front. In my opinion it would make more sense to give them more armor and less skill-defence(that would make them less vulnerbale to the back where they get attacked quite often). I know that swapping some of their defence from skill to armor will make them more vulnerbale to AP-units but that would seem more correct for me than it is now.

You're right, but I think trolls have been given good Defense and less Armor, for they're often said fearing arrows (IIRC).

[Dago Red]

Hi!

Is that the "armor" that their skin gives them, I don´t understand that, in M2TW unarmored units have 0 armor. Here I see Breeland Militia with 3 armor, with padded armor upgrade 4. That lead me to other problems:

Gondor Militia starts with chainmail armor that gives them only 4 armor. Gondor mail gives as much protection as Eriador padded/leather?

Some of the armor values are a bit wonky I agree... but fyi this is not the best example of what you're saying. Visually, those breeland militia look very well protected from head to toe, even their neck. And kettle helms and chapel-de-fer,etc. I was struck by how ridiculously over- equipped they appear to be. Those would be the militia if a very wealthy Lord indeed in the real world. While chainmail under/over leather is certainly better, don't be fooled into thinking that it's so much better it needs to be more than 1 point greater in every case.

But IMO, those Bree units LOOK over armored, and should not be that well equipped. So, yes, Gondor's milita should be superior in every way.

Another real world consideration: leather, when hardened, makes an armor as strong as iron given the weight and overall protection value against different attacks. There is a reason people hardened leather and used it as armor for literally millennia, all the way through to the modern age.

Most plate pieces worn by knights (and the wealthy) through the middle ages are actually hardened leather, NOT iron or steel, especially on pauldrons, gauntlets and grieves (legs and arms). This is not normally made clear in depictions since the image of the full steel plate late 16th century knight seems burned into people's minds. If it's painted, decorated or ornate in any way, it's usually leather.

[BobTheShogun]

Some of the armor values are a bit wonky I agree... but fyi this is not the best example of what you're saying. Visually, those breeland militia look very well protected from head to toe, even their neck. And kettle helms and chapel-de-fer,etc. I was struck by how ridiculously over- equipped they appear to be. Those would be the militia if a very wealthy Lord indeed in the real world. While chainmail under/over leather is certainly better, don't be fooled into thinking that it's so much better it needs to be more than 1 point greater in every case.

But IMO, those Bree units LOOK over armored, and should not be that well equipped. So, yes, Gondor's milita should be superior in every way.

Another real world consideration: leather, when hardened, makes an armor as strong as iron given the weight and overall protection value against different attacks. There is a reason people hardened leather and used it as armor for literally millennia, all the way through to the modern age.

Most plate pieces worn by knights (and the wealthy) through the middle ages are actually hardened leather, NOT iron or steel, especially on pauldrons, gauntlets and grieves (legs and arms). This is not normally made clear in depictions since the image of the full steel plate late 16th century knight seems burned into people's minds. If it's painted, decorated or ornate in any way, it's usually leather.

I've literally never heard this or read this before, so sorry, but you'd have to provide a source for me to believe you. All plate armor I have seen is mostly metal.

[kraxmause]

Indeed, apart from the antique muscle cuirass that would be new to me.

[Dago Red]

It's nothing new, indeed, it is quite ancient

Keep in mind, again, I'm not talking about clearly steel plates on the 16 & 17th century knights -- those images from the late middle ages burned into people's minds. Armor across the world was mostly made of things other than iron and steel. Iron just isn't that great pound for pound against hardened leather. Steel certainly is, but people couldn't make it easily, or in quantity, for the most part, until the late middle ages. Some argument remains over this, and it may be that steel was being cranked out in high quantities in places in India and Khwarzem much earlier than in the west.... the Kataphracts of the medieval period and all that... but they weren't forming what would be considered plate armor from it as much as what we'd describe as lamellar and scale.

In any case, let me emphasize something about what I said: "Most plate pieces worn by knights (and the wealthy) through the middle ages are actually hardened leather..." That's not to say they weren't wearing iron or steel as well, but most of the parts of the armor people tend to think of as metal were in fact, hardened leather. Again, though most of the middle ages. There is no secret here, just a matter of dispensing popular culture for reality. I don't have a picture to post at the moment but you can look through any number of historical mod forums here and read up about armor.

[Dimitris_x]

Dago is right,the plate armors exists for a vary small time period before gunpowder discovery and weared only by the men of great wealth or combat quality {like Knights}.the most common armor for normal soldier was hardenedleather,papped and chainmail.sorry for my really bad English

[k/t]

What's "papped"?

[Flavius Merobaudes]

What's "papped"?

I guess he means "padded".

[k/t]

Ah.