Hypothetical scenario - involving Kushans, Persians and Romans...

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Let us imagine - Shapur II starts the ill-conceived invasion of the Hellenistic Kushan empire, but fails. The Kushans then pursue war into the Sassanid empire, not yet stable, and kill the king and seize his harem somewhere in eastern Iran. The great clans still manage some resistance, and offer the Romans vassalage in return for protection. Rome under Constantius II agrees, sends troops into Mesopotamia, seizes the empire's western half and defeats the Greco-Scythians in a hard fought battle near Susa, but the Romans are forced to retreat due to the primitive irrigation system failing to supply their army with water. Constantius strikes a deal with whoever led the invasion to partition Persia - Rome receives most of Mesopotamia, Armenia and the Caucasus, and Kushans get the desert, southern Iraq, the Persian gulf and the southern Caspian coast.

How would events have progressed from this point on? Would Rome with the Kushans become rivals like the with the Persians before? Or would they have settled for more peaceful co-existence? If the latter is true, maybe Rome would have less difficulty managing the empire and preventing barbarian incursions like Adrianople and 406AD! About the Kushans - well, I know nothing about them apart from that they mainly spoke Greek and were better than Sassanids.

[Diocle]

Interesting 'What if?' scenario!
IMO Kushans would have a better relationship with Rome, the difficulty with the Sassanians was that the Persian dinasty based is consensus on a strong military expansionism and on a deep religious fanaticism, if the Sassanians dismissed their aggressive politic towards Roman Empire the bassis of their political consensus would vanish.
Probably a Kushan empire, culturally more Ellenistic, would not need similar aggressive politics, so the relationship with Rome might be better.
But in this case probably Rome would become more aggressive, here the problem is the control over the great trade routes with the East, the Sassanians and before them the Parthians burdened the caravans in transit with trade tariffs, thing that the Romans of course did not like. So Probably some form of political friction was really inevitable, between the Roman Empire and any Eastern/Persian political power, this because the attrition was based on more solid economic structural basis than on a mere problem of cultural homogeneity.
(Too many periods hypotetical for my English which isn't good!)

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Indeed, but the lack of zealous jihadists constantly causing trouble and demanding tributes while the emperor is not looking would certainly be positive. However, I doubt the Romans could really expand much further since if they couldn't against the Persians they would certainly fail against Greeks.

But if they did, they'd become pretty much invincible. Would be fun if Rome conquered China and India.

[Diocle]

This is exactly the substance of the problem!!! From the time of Crassus or Marcus Antonius the silk from China and spices and other precious goods before arriving in Rome should be taxed by the prices of the Caravans long travels, by the prices of the merchants who controlled the Caravans, by the taxation of the Persians, by the Taxation of the Anatolian ellenistic little dominions, and by the surplus who pretended the merchants of the mediterranean ports to sell and to send the goods in question! (mainly Jews or Phoenicians)....In the end the prices of silk and spices (which were indispensable to the conservation of the food) in Rome were enormous!!! So yes the Romans, if they could, would be happy to give a drastic cut to this chain, maybe conquering, if not China or India, some solid position on Indian Ocean or modern Afghanistan!

[DarthLazy]

Why not post in VV AH forum?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

The point is, even though Rome would be the one invading, the Kushans would have little reason invading, no?

[Diocle]

I agree!
Butit is the geopolitical position of Persia which is its force and its weakness. Even today, they are between East and West, and maintaining some pressure on both sides they gain from both sides, but this game is very, very, very dangerous!!!!! If you pull too far, this game, today, might became the final one (nuclear desert!!!!).

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Hehe...

IMO, the Kushans would see Iran as kind of a borderland. Their actual priorities lay in India. Thus it is unlikely we'd see aggression from their side. The Romans could employ the freed up troops, attention and resources in Europe. With the fall of Caucasian Albania one might even see a trade route over the Caspian sea - say, Romans establishing a colony across the lake, to trade through the Hephthalites directly, thus taking out an important part of the 4-stage (China-Central Asia-Persia-Rome) silk road.

[Diocle]

Interesting strategical view!!! But.. so... you was serious when, in your account, you said you wuold become Emperor of the world!

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Indeed, Romans extending their influence beyond the Caspian... With time they might want more - like the great central Asian cities of Merv, Marakanda and Herat.

[Diocle]

And then China!!!! You are pushing my mind off-topic!!! Think: Diocletianus Germanicus Maximus, Persicus Maximus, Indicus atque Sericus Maximus!!!! A real dream!!! Think: 'Coors III Pia Fidelis Milliaria Equitata Serica' or better 'Ala II Invicta Bis Torquata Catafracta Serica'!!!!

Do you know that there is the legend that some Legionaries escaped from the Parthians after Charrae, arrived in China? It seem, so say the Chinese, that in a small village in the west of China today living the descendants of those ancient legionaries!!1 Valerio Massimo Manfredi, an Italian Archeologist an Best Seller writer, wrote a book narrating this strange history.

We would need a much bigger map, but the Romans against the Seri would be a wonderful game!!!!

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

About those "legionaries" - the story is based on a description of someone fighting in a loose but orderly formation in the service of a Xiagnou warlord, so those are probably just Tocharians. After all, true Romans are not really the fairest haired & blue-est eyed. The Persians, Kushans and other Iranians had such barbaric features more often. So Seria is China in Latin?


Well, if we got a team together we might always make a submod...

[DarthLazy]

Roach using similies, you drunk or something?

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IMO Rome would be best served by just occupying Mesapotamia, anything beyond that should go as some sort of borderland , going beyond that they would indeed attract attention from...unwanted tribes.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

They could establish a colony beyond the Caspian for trading purposes, you know. The only actual reason they never got around to trying is because both sides were under Persian influence.

[Diocle]

Blatta we need from you a good map of this area (with some China and India territories), so anyone can see what we are talking about and the suggestions could be immediatly compared with the real geographical situation (the regions you are speaking about for me are not like the lake of Como!).
I saw a wonderful map in a tread about the Bulgars or similar, in the East of Rome Mod tread, you also should add the map to the first post, it would make the thread more aesthetically attractive and it would be very useful!!!!

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I can make one, even though I thought I made myself clear in the OP.

[Diocle]

No, no! You was clear, all is OK! But if we had a map, not a great one, we should use the map as a geographical reference; I'll search, maybe I'll find something downloadable.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

How about that for a rough estimate of both empires?

[Diocle]

Good and useful!! The only first step I can see as Roman interesing development is take Samarkand, then Talas and then say: Hallo! how do you do? to the Seri! ...... [()]......

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I am not sure expanding that far would be feasible.

My alternate history:
1. First of all, Rome stays united for now it can keep the majority of its military in Europe - the Kushans being mostly occupied in central India. Thus the eternal empire has a far easier time defending the frontiers from barbarians.
2. Armenia, Iberia, Lazica and Albania have served their purpose - since there are no more Persians to contend for that territory, the Romans are free to more or less annex them. Occupation of the Caucasus region allows free access to the Caspian sea, and if Romans were aware of the other coast (and they were), they'd start exploring it, possibly creating minor vassals and trading outposts in northeastern Iran. Through those they establish relations with the kidarites and, later, Hephthalites, thus shortening the trade route to China.
3. The empire now survives longer, and business in the east is blooming. Romans start getting interesting ideas about extending their control of the valuable lifeline. Through proxies they seize larger and larger chunks of it, leaving policinig it to nomadic peoples in exhange for money. Over time those nomads could become something close to foederati, and the region - Romanized. Christianity takes over the place, further extending Romes influence.
4. Rome may start appointing hugher officials to govern the area, and in typical Roman fashion those seek riches and glory, slowly annexing all the peoples of Sogdia and reaching the Tarim. The Tocharians are Romanized and made proxies of this proxy state, which over time gets more and more influence, yet retaining a measure of autonomy.
5. Somewhere around year 500 a dynasty of Roman "governors" has formed, with a large, loyal force descended from the Christian natives (Iranic sedentary peoples and Hunnic nomads) as well as Roman soldiers. The governor is an independent king in all but name, yet keeps close economic ties with the empire. Slowly expanding they soon start warring with the Kushans or whoever succeeded them, annexing much of northern Iran and Bactria, as well as seizing the passes to northern India and controlling the flow of trade from there. They become quite powerful, all the while the mainland empire is struggling in civil wars and barbarian invasions, though not as badly as in real life.
6. Year 550, the Romano-Hunnic empire is now independent. It rules nearly all of central Asia and begins expanding into what we now know as China. They stop the Turks from ever reaching the region, and they field a massive force of feudal cavalry and infantry levies from the provinces. Much of Northern India is now theirs and Iran is under their vassalage.
7. 600AD. With a capital at Samarkand, the wast, multicultural Romano-Persian empire (named such because the two languages now have equal status), ruled by Romans and held together by Persian style cavalry, stretches from the Gobi desert in the east to the Caucasus in the west; From the Tarim in the north to Dekhan plataeau in the south. It is the modt powerful state in the world, ruling over some 90 - 100 million people. Languages spoken there include Latin, Persian, Hindic, Greek and Chinese. The real Roman empire is reduced to a group of warring states.

It is the year 674AD. Augustus Flavius Artaxerxes IV has now gathered an army of hundreds of thousands in the entirety of western Iran, divided into 6 armies. Each Praefectus Satrapalis commands at least 50 thousand troops organized into legions 10 000 strong, with cataphract cavalry clad in plate and mail armor produced by the finest steelworkers in India, Romano-Persianinfantry in composite cohorts of swordsmen, spearmen and archers, thousands of elephants, as well as Indian longbowmen, nomadic horse archers and Chinese infantry with polearms. The stage is set for the most epic war in human history. All they need now is the order...


The rest you can imagine yourself!