Cavalry nerf?

[Andor Vex]

So being the faithful Rohan player that I am the first 3.0 playthrough I started was with them. And ever since the beginning I've had the feeling that cavalry charges don't do as much damage as they used to. And now that I was a little disappointed that my Royal Guard unit failed to rout a unit of southron archers (seriously!!) I ran a couple of tests. And from what it seemed the cavalry units in 3.0 do about 2 or in some bad cases even 3 times less damage than they used to. I think I remember a unit of Eored Heavies routing a unit of Serpent Guard with 1 or 2 downhill charges. Now that I tried it again it took FIVE. And when playing huge campaign battles there's 20 units to command not one micromanagement gets even more difficult.
I think that the new animations (spears instead of lances, which lore-wise does make sense) might be the cause of the issue? But the way cavalry feels weak with a faction like Rohan can get frustrating at times.
It might just be because of my play-style, but am I the only one who feels like the cavalry are seriously nerfed?

[francis86]

I never really use cavalry but its true that for rohan,the cavalry would need to be really strong,they are renown to have the best horse and one of the best cavalry of all middle-earth,it should be alot stronger than that

May just go in EDU and edit it myself

[lolIsuck]

You can change the charge value for cavalry units in EDU (export_descr_unit.txt), it's not hard and savegame compatible

[Incredible Bulk]

how can you change it I agree rohan should have They best cavalry

[Darth Lord Revan]

how can you change it I agree rohan should have They best cavalry

1) Copye the export_descr_unit (AKA EDU) located in: "SEGA/Medieval II Total War / mods / Third_Age_3 / data" to desktop
2) Right clic and open it with notepad
3) search for the unit you want to change, e.g. Royal Guard

type Royal Guard
dictionary Royal_Guard ; Royal Guard
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade
soldier royal_guard, 24, 0, 1
officer rohan_captain_early_flag
mount eorlingas horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, knight
move_speed_mod 1.05
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square
stat_health 1, 3
stat_pri 8, 13, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 45, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 15, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 10, 6, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground -1, -2, -3, -1
stat_mental 19, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 3, 1200, 390, 75, 75, 1200, 4, 100
armour_ug_levels 4
armour_ug_models royal_guard, royal_guard_upg
ownership milan
era 0 milan
era 1 milan
era 2 milan
recruit_priority_offset 15

4) Change the number in red to a higher number (note that this unit already has a pretty high charge) to change charge bonus

5) Change the number in blue to change the number of men in the unit

6) Save it and overwrite the one in Third_Age_3 / data

ALLWAYS KEEP A BACK UP OF THE EDU IN CASE YOU DO SOMETHING WRONG

You can check my submod as well, it changes ALL stats to Real Combat and its balanced according to that system. You can find it in the submods subforum here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=513489

[lolIsuck]

Well here, take mine, I gave all cavalry units a bigger charge bonus and gave Rohan's lower cav units more men, 100() on huge unit size so it resembles them being a cav nation more and to give AI Rohan a chance
Note: I also made the elves stronger but I don't know wether I finished making them more expensive

Attachment 198164
copy this into your TATW data folder, rename/delete the old one (whatever's your preference) and rename this one to the old ones name

[kaa]

Well here, take mine, I gave all cavalry units a bigger charge bonus and gave Rohan's lower cav units more men, 100() on huge unit size so it resembles them being a cav nation more and to give AI Rohan a chance
Note: I also made the elves stronger but I don't know wether I finished making them more expensive

Attachment 198164
copy this into your TATW data folder, rename/delete the old one (whatever's your preference) and rename this one to the old ones name

Hm, 100(101) units in rohan riders, elves heavy archers with AP arrows... Are you took my EDU?
I have done almost the same changes.

[Andor Vex]

That EDU seems to "balance" things a bit, but it feels a little.. wrong. I mean that it feels a little like me changing the game files to give myself an edge. A little like cheats (hmm.. yes, the ethics of editing game files.. *falls into deep thought*). I just think that the cavalry needs to be changed universally while taking other aspects into account as well (other units, unit types).

[lolIsuck]

Generally when units are made stronger they are made more expensive so that balances it out a bit, mine is probably pretty imbalanced

[muller227]

So being the faithful Rohan player that I am the first 3.0 playthrough I started was with them. And ever since the beginning I've had the feeling that cavalry charges don't do as much damage as they used to. And now that I was a little disappointed that my Royal Guard unit failed to rout a unit of southron archers (seriously!!) I ran a couple of tests. And from what it seemed the cavalry units in 3.0 do about 2 or in some bad cases even 3 times less damage than they used to. I think I remember a unit of Eored Heavies routing a unit of Serpent Guard with 1 or 2 downhill charges. Now that I tried it again it took FIVE. And when playing huge campaign battles there's 20 units to command not one micromanagement gets even more difficult.
I think that the new animations (spears instead of lances, which lore-wise does make sense) might be the cause of the issue? But the way cavalry feels weak with a faction like Rohan can get frustrating at times.
It might just be because of my play-style, but am I the only one who feels like the cavalry are seriously nerfed?

That sounds more like a mass issue. Down hill any heavy Cav should be crushing against infantry. The Momentum of horse carcasses down hill is no small issue.

[ryan1266]

I can't tell why they'd do that? In the battle of Pelanor fields, Tolkien describes the Rohan cavalry somewhat like a knife cutting through butter when fighting the hordes of orcs and other baddies in front of Minas Tirith. Then, the Swan Knights join, pushing out all in their path until they lost momentum. The footsoldiers seem to have a secondary role, with the horses carving the enemy while the soldiers of Gondor grind away at the orcs. If anything, the cavalry should have gotten a buff (especially the elite cavalry units) rather than a nerf.

[k/t]

The cool thing about RR/RC is that it's consistent and it's based at least to some extent on measurements rather than "should".

[iffi]

The only problem with cavalry is the image we have of them in our heads.

Glorious frontal charge this, heroic frontal charge that..

If you feel it should be so, change the values in the game.

To me even the weakest mounted units are overpowered, because with them I can root the enemy much sooner than without them. And a side or a back charge on an engaged unit kills a lot, always.

[Andor Vex]

You mean, 50 men charging from behind engaged infantry killing only 20 men is overpowered?

EDIT: 50 men of ELITE cavalry if I might add.

[iffi]

You mean, 50 men charging from behind engaged infantry killing only 20 men is overpowered?

EDIT: 50 men of ELITE cavalry if I might add.

What could have gone wrong with your charge is that it was started from too close. Especially with heavy cavalry, you need to get momentum (they react slower than light cav, which is the reason I quite prefer the latter). If the charge starts near the intended target, not all individual units actually complete a proper charge.

Second problem might have been an unfortunate angle/unit formation (either you or the target, or both).

If the target was moving, especially running away from you, a cavalry charge is annoyingly ineffective in the game (against skirmishers I get this sometimes). All it needs is that they start the animation of moving away from you and my charge is ineffective.

Some reports indicate that AI morale is upped from 2.1. Also, a lot depends on the bonuses given by your and enemy generals. So 1 vs 1 test without generals may be quite different from proper campaign battles.

Myself, I have not noticed anything different with mounted units. Haven't played Rohan yet in 3.1.

[GueulEclator]

@iffi you are right but the problem is that making a good cavalry charge is just too complicated and the condition are almost never met. That is what is unrealistic. when a unit of heavy cavalry make a frontal charge on a unit of infantery ,that are not pikeman or very heavely armored man, they should almost obliterate the unit watever the angle or the momentum. Otherwise, seeign a bunch of archer surviving a cavalery charge is just unrealistic.

[ryan1266]

The only problem with cavalry is the image we have of them in our heads.

Glorious frontal charge this, heroic frontal charge that..

If you feel it should be so, change the values in the game.

To me even the weakest mounted units are overpowered, because with them I can root the enemy much sooner than without them. And a side or a back charge on an engaged unit kills a lot, always.

Well it's not just me... Tolkien also seemed a little obsessed with glorious charges of cavalry saving the day and sweeping away the enemy. The books are FULL of them.

[muller227]

Well it's not just me... Tolkien also seemed a little obsessed with glorious charges of cavalry saving the day and sweeping away the enemy. The books are FULL of them.

They are?? I can only think of the various charges at the Pelennor, Eomers fight against an understrenght Orc Company and Elfhelm's night charge at the Ford of the Isen, though there may be a second charge during the day. The Charges at the Isen however did not produce very decisive results at all.

The historical charges such as the the Ride of Eorl the Young are decisive in their surprise. Helms cavalry is defeated by Dunlanders during the long winter. As is Theodreds by Uruk Hai.

Tolkien was a cavalry officer before the war and understood cavalry better than virtually any writer, he knew its strengths and weaknesses. Like any military unit used properly it is very decisive, improper use gets them killed.

[KnightsTemplar]

Becuase real life say so.
Reality is unrealistic.


*Look at Vienna*

[The Mouth]

I don't think cavalry charges need a buff... I can already easily defeat my enemies (Gondor) with 2 units of Black Numenoreans, despite them having several units of Gondor archers, swordsmen, and (Every once in awhile) spear men while I on the other hand, have an assortment of orc bands to hold then enemy in place while I charge (Late into the battle). So if anything there still overpowered. Though I don't think they need nerfed either for game plays sake (And possibly lores)